Author Topic: Missile Test Success  (Read 3476 times)

Offline leonid

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« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2001, 04:37:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler:


One of Stalins few bright moments   :)
But then again, where would you be with 46 years of American/European backed capitalism under your country's belt? I'd imagine alittle more comfortable than you are now   :)

No legend but true:  Churchill wanted assessment plans drawn up right at war's end for an attack on the Soviet Union.  His General Staff drew one up, stating such a conflict would be hopelessy bogged down with little hope of any real western Allied gains.  Think the plan was called Operation Unthinkable.  No joke.  Churchill finally woke up from his red wet dream, and dropped it.
ingame: Raz

Offline Rude

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« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2001, 04:46:00 PM »
Well Boroda....that last post seems to sum it up for me....I believe I detect some bitterness, which explains alot of what you have posted.

Oh yeah...gestures....let's sign an agreement with a country which openly states it's intention to destroy the U.S., aligning itself militarily against the U.S..

We should all just agree on one thing...we will never solve all of the problems we face nor will we all get along either...hopefully we will just survive each others fears.

Rude

Capitalist Pig on a Mission to Destroy the Rest of the World

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2001, 06:11:00 PM »
Toad, you are misinformed.

First, there were only around 300 casualities (in fact more Serbs then Albanians) in Kosvo conflict when bombing started. Facing a problem similiar to Chechnya Serbs were extremely human to terrorists and drug-dealers. What you call "ethnic cleansings" started after the bombings started. Noone could stop people who were bombed because of Albanians. Nice try - starting a mess intending to stop it.

Then, and it seemsto me that you simply don't have it in the news: after KFOR entered Kosovo - it protects Albanians and pays absolutely no attention to hundreeds of thousands of Serbian refugees, 1000 years Orthodox curches and monasterys being destroyed by Albanians etc. What is going on there now is almost the same that happened in Chechnya, with some national features like throwing grenades at Serbian children and whomen from car windows.

Damn, NATO even refused to give Russian KFOR troops a special region in Kosovo!

UN, yes, UN. UN NEVER approved the bombings. According to the procedure such decisions are to pass Security Council. But this decision could never pass it, because Russia and China will veto it. So - noone stirred and Russia had to prepare another proposal: to stop bombings! And it was immediately vetoed by US and UK! You call it a UN decision!?

About the US bomber maps: I read it in a book by a very respectable man, 2 times Hero of the Soviet Union, who scored more kills then any "allied" ace. When I'll get the book back (in a day or two, i think) I'll post a location and dates. BTW, he's still alive and lives in Moscow. In 2000, when the book was published, he was still working. There is a small chance to talk to him... But now I "sell it for the same price I bought it". And I still can imagine that such maps could exist. BTW, since when a tailgunner had his own copy of flight maps with routes and targets marked? Sorry, not in any way I want to offend a War veteran.

Anyway - thanks for your information, it's very valuable to me.

Stalin asking to bomb Dresden, that was supposed to be in Soviet occupation zone - it's something interesting and new  :)

As for destroying the world - you miss something, we ARE able to do it. But USSR never ever used nukes in wars, unlike the US.

Russia's current official military doctrine is a "preventing nuclear strike". It's a very sad fact, but it's a fact. US did won a cold war, and benefits from it, playing games with bombs wherever they want, but instead of a stalemate with possible conventional war in case of a serious conflict they now face an opponent that has nothing to lose. In this conditions it's extremely unsafe to show ignorance like the latest ABM test.

And if the things will get really hot - I have no doubt that US will use nukes first, because it's the only chance for them to win a conflict.

Some other facts that some people in this thread may misunderstand:

1) Russia is a successor of the USSR. We respect all treaties signed by USSR, as well as paying all debts of the USSR and Russian Empire.

2) I do not support any kind of nuclear escalation. I do not support some aspects of current Russian foreign politics. I do not like current Russian administration and all the regimes that changed in Russia in the last 100 years.

3) I said many times that in RL I am not such anti-American, and enjoy the fact that we can discuss such things with each other.

4) I am NOT a communist. For Miko: I adore people who prefered not tear away commissar's stars from the sleeves of their uniforms, sentencing themselves to a horrible death in the hands of nazies.

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2001, 09:58:00 PM »
Toad dont bother, skippy wont ever get it, he is so brain washed with absolute baseless facts, that it is impossible to talk to him.  I have no idea why comrade leonid is in the U.S. if ya dislike it, leave bro.  Still comrade boroda what about the f14s in 1986?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2001, 11:36:00 PM »
Boroda, I'm misinformed? You grew up in a country that made misinforming its own populace an artform. You guys wrote the book on a "Free Press" too I bet.  :)

So you are going to post with a straight face that from 1992, when the Bosnian Serbs, assisted by the Federal Army of Serbia, attempted to carve out their own separate Serbian republic within Bosnia-Herzegovina, until the Dayton Accord in November 1995 there were only a total of "around 300 casualties"?

If that's what you are saying, it's ludicrous. It's simply unbelievable that you would even try to slide a whopper that big past everyone.

For a guy that doesn't want to discuss Human Rights, I'm amazed you even mentioned Chechnya.

UN sent troops to Bosnia? Go back and READ what I wrote. It ABSOLUTELY WAS A UN DECISION to send a multi-national force to Bosnia. It did that in UN Security Council Resolution 1031, December 15, 1995.

14. "Authorizes the Member States acting through or in cooperation with the organization referred to in Annex 1-A of the Peace Agreement to establish a multinational implementation force (IFOR) under unified command and control in order to fulfil the role specified in Annex 1-A and Annex 2 of the Peace Agreement;

Do a little research please.  

I agree that the UN did not specifically authorize the airstrikes in '99. I think it was wrong to do it without the authorization too. You'll have to look to the Commander-In-Chief at the time to see who authorized that screw-up.

However, that does NOT change the fact that the people of the US opposed sending troops to the region and the House of Representatives initially voted against funding the troop deployment. Clinton did it anyway and Congress fell into line to support the troops, once it was clear Clinton was sending them anyway.

You made the claim the US was eager to get into this mess, which is just more typical revisionist BullSh*t.

Further, Bush and Rumsfeld talk about pulling troops out now and who screams? Not the people of the US; they're in favor of the withdrawal. It's our European Allies making all the noise against it.

Now to your preposterous WW2 bombing claims.

Unlike the Soviet system, our crewmembers didn't (and don't) have to spy on each other and they don't have to hide anything. There's no "political officers" in our forces.

In fact, one reason why we are pretty successful in the air is that our "crew concept" insures that EVERYONE knows what's going on a mission. It's always been that way, even in WW2.

My father-in-law attended the full crew mission briefs before launch. If there were targets in the area that weren't supposed to be hit, EVERYONE was briefed. Why? Because in combat you never know who's going to have to do what job. Sometimes Engineer/Gunners had to fill in for injured pilots. Late in the war, they didn't even use Bombardiers for the most part. They substitued enlisted "toggleers" to drop when the lead ship dropped.

I'll give you and example. When they hit Cologne, my father-in-law specifically remembers being briefed "not to hit the Cathedral". They told EVERYONE that.

Now, based on a Soviet Ace (bet he flew more missions and for a longer period than any US Ace, too, didn't he?  :D Your ego is in sore need of anything that floats to hold it up, isn't it?) that supposedly talked to ONE B-17 crewmember you're going to tell me we didn't bomb any factories that had US investors?

LOL. If we failed to hit a factory it's because we MISSED! Give me an example of a factory that was important to the war effort that we didn't try to hit that had US investors. Until you can do that, it's just more of your revisionist BS.

Between the US and the British I'll wager there were d*mn few factories we missed completely.

Dresden: You didn't do any research, did you? The ARGONAUT Conferences of January-February 1945 at Yalta; Army General Antonov, Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff started the Dresden ball rolling. Check it out.

Yes, Russia is able to destroy the world.

You've successfully destroyed your own country. You d*mn near destroyed the USSR satellite nations. You wasted the lives of an entire generation since WW2 in your own country and the satellites with an economic system that was never suited to or compatible with basic human nature. It hasn't worked anywhere.

Now your political and economic instability has resulted in yet another true threat to World Peace and Security. The proof of it is in your lightly veiled threats in this and other threads. I'm guessing you are pretty typical of those longing for the "good old days" when nations trembled in your shadow.

The silly idea that the US would use nukes first is given the lie by one simple fact:

Russia simply has NOTHING the US would go to war to get. We can trade for anything we need; since the time of our first President, Washington, COMMERCE has been the goal of the US. Not conquest... COMMERCE. (Yes, throughout the years we've goofed a few times.)

You have nothing we want that we can't buy from you or some other country. Why would we fight for anything?

In 1999 we Heavily Subsidised or outright GAVE Russia the following foodstuffs:
 http://www.gao.gov/new.items/n100329.pdf

"The Department of Agriculture’s Foreign Agricultural Service administered and negotiated agreements under these programs.1 Under the title I agreement...the United States provided about 1.8 million metric tons of various commodities that were sold to the Russian government on concessional loan terms.

The section 416(b) program agreement, also signed in December 1998 and amended in
March 1999, provided 1.7 million metric tons of wheat to the Russian government on a donation basis.

A Food For Progress agreement was added in February 1999 that shifted 80,000 metric tons of two commodities(non-fat dry milk and pork) from the Public Law 480 title I sales program to the donation program and also donated 15,000 metric tons of seeds.

All of the commodities were to be sold to raise funds for the Russian Pension Fund and six designated agricultural projects, except for 411,400 metric tons of wheat, which were to be donated to Russian social institutions to feed the most needy.

In addition, the Foreign Agricultural Service selected five private voluntary organizations to distribute about 97,000 tons of various donated ready-to-eat commodities throughout Russia under the Food For Progress and section 416(b) programs.

A summary of the tonnage, U.S. cost, and value of the proceeds expected to be generated by the sale of commodities distributed under these programs is presented in table 2."

All in all, in 1999, the US gave or sold Russia commodities worth $1,106.5 (millions) and received from Russia $355.5 (millions) in return. In short, a three quarters of a billion dollar gift of foodstuffs.

That's just ONE area in which we TRIED to help.

Does this sound like something an ENEMY does?

Get rid of the paranoia. It's one of your country's big obstacles to success.

..and we WANT you to succeed.

Good Luck.

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Dnil, I doubt he'll ever be convinced that the US isn't the "Great Satan".  :)

I'm just not going to let some of these BS claims go unchallenged.  :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Thud

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« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2001, 09:54:00 AM »
Quote
American government is traditionaly unpredictaple, and usualy lacks any kind of common sence in foreign politics decisions. Can anyone tell me a sane reason for Yugoslavian war in 1999? What did it end up with?

I really feel sorry for you Boroda, because you're still stuck in all that misinformation, propaganda and xenophoby towards the former enemies. After ten years of democracy one would think that citizens would adapt to the newly acquired freedom and initiate some thinking patterns of themselves. But no, still all cliches and prejudicial beliefs, sad......

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2001, 10:01:00 AM »
hehe toad, keep holding the torch bro.  How dare you bring validated facts to this argument.   ;)

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2001, 10:17:00 AM »
Toad, we have different sources and different opinions, and it's impossible to persuada each other in such a discussion. But it's fun  :)

About UN resolutions and Yugoslavia - I agree with you about Bosnia, but I asked you about war in 1999. There was NO UN decision to start bombings. Bombings were criminal, violating international laws and people who issued criminal ordered must be arrested and trialed.

I already told you about "american assistance", but looks like you don't play preferance.

All that donations in fact were a disaster. They came in the years when Russia had extremely big harvest, so there was no need in such "aid". Someone in the government was bribed, or simply used an old "take if they give" rule. Wheat prices in Russia went down, even without "american assistance" they should have dropped. Many experts said this was an open attempt to ruin Russian agriculture. Russia is a great market for Western food, so removing competitors is a smart idea. Russian agriculture is traditionaly ineffective since 1930-s, so to destroy it you don't have to use great effort.

Why Russia is dangerous to US:

It doesn't follow US decisions as other countries.

It has enormous energy and raw resources, and capable to influence world markets in this fields.

It has a strong military-industrial complex, competitive to the US, and can supply arms to "rogue nations" (another newspeak phrase. Ever thought of writing a "modern newspeak" dictionary?).

It openly opposites US in their support for Moslim extremists all over the world.

The complex of problems ig bigger then between US and China.

As for me - US is an enemy of Russia because it supports Chechen terrorists. That's enough. Please tell me any example when USSR or Russia interfered into the US internal affairs.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2001, 10:20:00 AM »
Here is a funny cartoon that IMO expresses a right view on politics:

   

      :)

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Boroda ]

Offline Toad

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« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2001, 12:32:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
... but I asked you about war in 1999. There was NO UN decision to start bombings. Bombings were criminal....

Boroda, please READ what I wrote. I AGREE with you about the Nato Air Campaign. Now, why don't you write Clinton about it? He's the Commander-In-Chief that authorised it on Presidential authority alone (which he unfortunately legally had).

 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
I already told you about "american assistance", but looks like you don't play preferance.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are driving at here or before.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
All that donations in fact were a disaster. They came in the years when Russia had extremely big harvest, so there was no need in such "aid".

That was just 1999 numbers. Don't make me go and dig out every single year, for Pete's sake! I think it goes back into the '80's at the very least.

Also remember that this is FOOD AID ONLY. I could research direct gifts of money, reduced rate loans, etc., etc., etc.

Point is we've been TRYING to help for a LONG, LONG, time in many ways.

Are these the things a true enemy does Boroda? We are not your enemy; there's AMPLE evidence of that.

You folks need to put an end to the paranoia that has hobbled Russia since before the Tsars.

 
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda:
Many experts said this was an open attempt to ruin Russian agriculture. Russia is a great market for Western food, so removing competitors is a smart idea. Russian agriculture is traditionaly ineffective since 1930-s, so to destroy it you don't have to use great effort.

See? More of the unending paranoia. Do you remember when US farmers, the actual tillers of the soil, came over there in the '70's and 80's to try and show you folks our methods? I guess they came to ruin you agricultural system too.  :rolleyes: Or maybe to learn your advanced methodology. We've had your farmers over here in Kansas and Iowa too.   :D

We've given you aid in multiple areas of your economy, good years, bad years, most years.  

You guys are doomed as long as you think "everyone is out to get us". The only ones "out to get you" is YOURSELVES. You've done a d*mn good job of it too.


"Why Russia is dangerous to US:

It doesn't follow US decisions as other countries."


But we don't care. Go your own way.

It has enormous energy and raw resources, and capable to influence world markets in this fields.

As do we ourselves. Beyond that, Commerce is our "thing". Buy low, sell high. That's Capitalism.   ;)

It has a strong military-industrial complex, competitive to the US, and can supply arms to "rogue nations"

Competition is GOOD! It's what Capitalism is all about. Maybe we'll buy some fighters from you.   :)

The "supplying arms to Rogue Nations" does put you in conflict with the US. It puts you into conflict with most of Europe and most of the intelligent nations of the world. If that's the path Russia chooses, it won't be just the US that is disappointed. It'll be every nation that has a drop of common sense.

It openly opposites US in their support for Moslim extremists all over the world.

You're saying the US supports Moslem extremists? LOL. We've got our own problems with them. Osama Bin Laden ring a bell? Iraq? Iran? Libya? No, sorry, I'm not buying this one! Too funny!

If you're referring to your version of Bosnia, then take it up with the UN that put the multi-national forces in to begin with. As I said, the American people were VERY RELUCTANT to even get involved.


As for me - US is an enemy of Russia because it supports Chechen terrorists.

Two questions:

What "support" has the US given Chechen terrorists? Documentation, please.

Please explain Russia's claim to sovereignity over Chechnya.

Under Nicolas I there was continual fighting in an attempt to bring them into the Empire, right? About 1859 Alexander II finally had the situation under "control"?

So Russia's "right" to Chechnya stems from the involuntary conquest of the Chechens in the second half of the 1800's?

The Chechens rebelled again and again, didn't they? Chechen insurrections were recorded again in 1862-1863, in 1877, in 1905, 1917-1925, in 1929-1936 and again in 1940-1951?

It doesn't sound like Russia ever fully conquered the Caucasus; now it's in "rebellion" again.

My question is where does Russia's "right to rule" Chechnya stem from? They were NEVER voluntarily part of your Empire any more than Poland or East Germany were, were they?

I'm not really a student of the Chechen situation (as yet  ;) ) so please enlighten me.

Now, before we stop:

300 Deaths in the ENTIRE Bosnian affair? Come on... admit it... this is a HUGE understatement. Or, show YOUR documentation. Mine is all over the Web and in news reports from just about any news agency in the world. Let's match numbers!


Did you look up Argonaut? The Soviet Union had their hand in the bombing of Dresden, old chum. All the Allies did; Dresden's death knell first rang in Yalta.

Not bombing German factories with American investment?

Put up or shut up, please. Name one and let's do some research on it. I'll soon have access to all the mission records of the 303rd BG, with the targeting orders. Let's see what turns up. Just supply a city and the factory that was "off limits" and I'll see what printed and oral (from a living vet) that I can find. As I said, I just met a Navigator at the 8th AF museum. He was huddled in that small nose with the bombardier. Let's see what he has to say.

Time to show what you've got.... if anything.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2001, 05:02:00 PM »
hehe dont hold your breath for info toad, I still havent got any on the 2 f14s the libyans shot down.   :rolleyes:

Offline B52Charlie

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« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2001, 11:34:00 PM »
Well, having seen a bit more than I ever wanted to around the world. I say nuke Russia and the Chicoms and go ahead and toss a couple at Cuba and sprinkle a few around europe and get it over with. I'm tired of being scolded my eurotrash and other foriegners for anything we do, but they don't mind near a million of us goin over to save them and dying over the last 200 years. As far as England,France and all them other unimportant little pissant countries berating us Americans for being uncivilized and devilish in our ideas and methods let the fun start there i'll be more than happy to push the first button but i'll be damned if i'll ever pull another trigger. Far as retaliation from Russia, hell 3/4 of the missles never make it out of the silos probably blow in the holes due to lack of maintenence and general degradation of the overall systems over there toss in the vodka blurred vision of the forces and you got youself a real birthday party. As far as the ABM treaty with the SOVIET UNION it doesn't exist with Russia you idjits.

Offline B52Charlie

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« Reply #87 on: July 19, 2001, 11:39:00 PM »
Oh yeah Boroda we have guys like you in the USA that have this survival stuff ready for the big day at any moment...we call them wackos, lucky you will only find you in about 1:30,000 people here, not enough for a majority vote in a democratic country.

Offline Gh0stFT

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« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2001, 05:58:00 AM »
When reading this or similar boards, i see we are lightyears away from being peacefull nations. So much hate, kinda scary, no wonder we will blow each other to hell one day.

have a nice day  ;)
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Offline Boroda

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« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
Toad, I'm not a boyscout or a young pioneer. Stop telling me all this happidities about "help", sacred "capitalism" and "competition is good". Good for whom!? For Lockheed-Martin or Rockwell?! Remember that "What's good for General Motors is good for America"?

Have you read Zbignew Brzezinsky's "Grand Chessboard"? It says a lot about methods and goals of US politics in Eurasia. After reading THAT I simply can't listen to such sugar-sweet expainations.

Again: "rogue nation" is a newspeak term, and this is a damn fascist newspeak. You see - it's not "rogue regime" or "rogue government", it's "NATION"!

Who the hell gave your Big Brothers is DC the right to decide if this or that NATION is defined as "rogue"?

I am tired of you twisting my words. Where did I say about 300 casualities in Bosnia!? I was always speaking about Kosovo conflict!

Soviet agriculture indeed was traditionly ineffective SINCE 1930s. Since collectivisation. Now Russian peasants simply forgot how to work. Frankly speaking 90% of them can be called "parasites"  :(

Then - Chechen war. US Secretary of State meets representatives of "Free Ichkeria", despite of the Russian Foreign Ministry decisive protests. Is it another demonstration? "See figure 1"? Or a talks about supplying Stingers?! Toad, there were Stingers captured in Chechnya, as well as full loads of US-manufactured uniforms and military equipment being shipped as "humanitarian aid" (BTW another good example). Or "Free Ichkeria and Famous Chechens" books, full of anti-Russian propagands, also printed in the US. Is it "aid" to Russia or supporting bloody gangsters who blow up apartment houses in MY city and take pregnant women as hostages!?

And the American support of Albanian terrorists is obvious, and their gangleaders like Hashim Tachi already said they got weapons and equipment from US. Looks like a competition between US government and Bin Laden - who'll help better.

Toad, do you know why America dosn't have problems with Indian uprisings and armed struggle? The answer is simple: there are no more Indians. Don't you wonder why Evil Russians didn't learn this truely progressive and time-saving experience from the US? They didn't slaughter Chechens, and left this problem for future.

Imagine Anglo-Saxon population in Southern California or Puerto-Rico being murdered, raped, robbed and enslaved, with international media howling about "human rights" when US Army will use force to protect them?

B52Charlie, I hope I AM paranoid, but I don't throw away a gas-mask. God protects people who protect themself. And it's useful when you deal with toxic chemicals like oil paint.

But reading your posts I think I am right. The danger still exists. Nothing to say about your opinion, it's your right to express it, and many thanks from me. Discussions are too boring without happy idiots like you.

B52Charlie, this time you get the price. Take a cookie from a shelf.

Toad, I think that you can find any info on the Net much faster then me. Would you be so kind to show me some documents from Yalta about request to bomb Dresden?