Author Topic: Will the USA green up its act?  (Read 5937 times)

Offline beet1e

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Will the USA green up its act?
« on: December 11, 2005, 05:16:43 AM »
Well, the UN conference on climate change, staged at Montreal has come and gone, and as expected the USA remains isolated in its position of refusing to negotiate on measures to reduce its own greenhouse gas emissions. Of course, it’s always going to be difficult for any administration to take “unpopular” measures to reduce greenhouse gas output in a country so heavily dependent on oil. Not least of the problems is that as with other democracies with a life cycle of between 4-7 years, the benefits of measures taken now won’t be apparent until after the current administration has ended its term of office.

This topic is being discussed on another board that I visit, and the folks there seem to be split into three camps – those who acknowledge the existence of global warming and are concerned, those who acknowledge it but don’t think there’s a problem, and those who think the whole issue is stuff and nonsense!

I take the view that like myself, most other people here don’t have a fully scientific understanding of the issues, beyond what we read in the papers. Personally, I prefer to give credence to the world’s scientists. When we have a scientific body that can, for example, predict the precise date, time and location of a solar eclipse YEARS in advance of the event, that tells me that they know what they’re talking about. By the same token, if an equally qualified group of scientists tell us that there really is a problem with regard to climate change and global warming, then I’m inclined to listen.

In his book, ”Billions and Billions”, the late American scientist and cosmologist Dr. Carl Sagan describes the difficulties he encountered in trying to convey his concerns about global warming to US politicians. One of them, having been apprised of the dangers of UV radiation resulting from a depletion of our protective ozone layer, retorted quite flippantly by saying that ”it won’t be a problem – we can just wear sunglasses”. As Dr. Sagan went on to point out, this would not be an option for life forms lower down the food chain. Indeed, the only politician on the world stage at that time that Dr. Sagan named as having a working scientific understanding of the problem and the reality of its dangers was British PM Margaret Thatcher, herself an Oxford graduate with a degree in Chemistry.

And in the 1980s, when US Chrysler Corp. CEO, Lee Iacocca urged Ronald Reagan to curb America’s energy consumption by introducing a small rise in tax on gasoline, Reagan replied to Iacocca in one of those “listen, son” tones, saying that right now that would “not be popular”. Iacocca was absolutely appalled that one of the key factors in policy making was “popularity”. Reagan was his friend, but Iacocca really panned him as a president.

I can well understand the sense of exasperation felt by Sagan and Iacocca. On this very board, I have encountered people who “see no reason” to curb the burning of fossil fuels, or who even believe that the most expeditious consumption of the world’s remaining oil stocks “would be a good thing”. But this is not surprising, coming from a country which produces vehicles which in some circumstances burn fuel at the rate a gallon for every 12 miles driven, but are considered by some to be “pretty economical”.

It seems that the Bush administration wants no part in greening up by reducing CO2 emissions, as this would involve a reduction in oil consumption, preferring instead to trust to some technological miracle which currently does not exist. The Kyoto agreement was rejected as an “economic straitjacket” in 2001. The US chief negotiator, Harlan Watson even stormed out of one meeting at last week’s conference in Montreal, so determined was he not to budge even an inch. Against this hardline stance, even Bush’s predecessor, Bill Clinton, has emerged as one of the government’s leading energy policy critics.

What can be done, and where? The following is a list of leading industrialised countries, and their contribution to the world output of greenhouse gases.

  • USA (25 % )
  • China (15 % )
  • Russia (7 % )
  • Japan (5 % )
  • India (4 % )
  • Germany (4 % )
  • UK (2 % )
  • Canada (2 % )
  • Italy (2 % )
If Britain were to halve its greenhouse gas emissions, it would make a difference of only 1% to the world total. But as can be seen from this list, the country with 5% of the world’s population emits 25% of the world’s greenhouse gas, so it should be obvious where the cuts would have to be made to make any impact on this GLOBAL problem.

As a higher rate taxpayer myself, I don’t like paying taxes, and I can’t think of anyone who does. It was interesting to see the effect that the post Katrina oil prices had on the motoring public. In another thread, it was revealed that although the increased annual cost of running a 12mpg gas guzzler was only ~$500 for a driver doing an average annual mileage of 12,000 miles, such vehicles were having to be discounted not by $1000 or $2000, but by a massive $15,000 in order to make them sell. My point is that a small levy could make a big difference to people’s motoring habits, and a big reduction in greenhouse gas output.

I do believe that everything will turn out right in the end. As Sir Winston Churchill once said, "America always makes the right decision..."

...and added "after having tried everything else".

Offline straffo

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2005, 05:35:15 AM »
// ugly ameri-con mode on

Statistics mean nothing !

// ugly americ-con mode off

Well especially when used by a non ameri-con !






Beetle I'm aware you know what con really mean !
I find the redundancy quite fiting in this case :D

storch

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2005, 06:50:33 AM »
once again, see to your own greenhouses ours don't leak.  on another note beet1e do you personally own a greenhouse?

Offline Fencer51

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2005, 07:38:11 AM »
Its so easy to sign up to an accord like this.  Europe, Japan and Canada all have.  Now they get to set back and pound their chests and say how evil America is, and you greens can rest assured WE are good people.  :noid

However, where are the results.  Not one of the signatories has met their obligations and a number (France, England, Germany, Japan) have actually had increases in their banned emissions since they signed up.  When the current signatories actually have the intestinal fortitude to wreck their economies and meet their obligations then, and only then will we see if they are serious about this accord.  Then we will know if this is anything other than an effort by the commie pinko green anti-americans to destroy this bastion of democracy, this shining city on the hill, this arsenal of democracy, this beacon to the downtrodden, this lush lovely land we call America.

In the 60s and 70s there was concern about a global cooling.  Scientists are not in agreement on global warming, whether it exists and whether if it is occuring whether man has any effect on it.

Talk is cheap, and so is this effort to blame America for things that occur whether humans are on the planet or not.  The planet has cycles, they occur whether we are here or not.  I dare say its alot colder now than when the dinos were stumbling around eating each other.

Quite frankly we are due for an iceage.  I say throw a log on the fire and lets keep the place warm. :aok
« Last Edit: December 11, 2005, 07:44:56 AM by Fencer51 »
Fencer
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As for the innocent, everyone needs to know they are innocent –
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Offline Slash27

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Re: Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2005, 07:38:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
It was interesting to see the effect that the post Katrina oil prices had on the motoring public. In another thread, it was revealed that although the increased annual cost of running a 12mpg gas guzzler was only ~$500 for a driver doing an average annual mileage of 12,000 miles, such vehicles were having to be discounted not by $1000 or $2000, but by a massive $15,000 in order to make them sell. My point is that a small levy could make a big difference to people’s motoring habits, and a big reduction in greenhouse gas output.

I do believe that everything will turn out right in the end. As Sir Winston Churchill once said, "America always makes the right decision..."

...and added "after having tried everything else".



Was there a new "Post Katrina Math" enacted?

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2005, 08:01:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
What can be done, and where? The following is a list of leading industrialised countries, and their contribution to the world output of greenhouse gases.

  • USA (25 % )
  • China (15 % )
  • Russia (7 % )
  • Japan (5 % )
  • India (4 % )
  • Germany (4 % )
  • UK (2 % )
  • Canada (2 % )
  • Italy (2 % )
I do believe that everything will turn out right in the end. As Sir Winston Churchill once said, "America always makes the right decision..."

...and added "after having tried everything else". [/B]


This list is BS, go to Mexico sometime.  When I was there for a month, you could smell Sulphur Emissions a 1/2 away from plants and factories.   The US already does more than most nations in terms of placing filters on factories.  Again, this list is total BS Beetle.  This goes back to the British cop thread, what the hell is your lot in life?  Are you really that angry, jealous, envious with AMERIKA that you must slam us weekly?  

I remember reading about the "Gracious Churchill" and Roosevelt selling out Poland in WWII.   Churchill was the leader of this move, and failed to invite any Poles from attending the 1946 Victory parade.  Any details?  The Poles saved your country from the Germans more than any Squadron in the RAF.  The Poles had the most kills of ANY RAF squadron ( namely the 303 squadron ).  Come on man, speak to me on these.  

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Offline Gh0stFT

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2005, 08:07:28 AM »
hm didnt knew that Churchill is to blame for greenhouse gases, hm...
interesting.
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The statement above is false.

Offline Masherbrum

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2005, 08:12:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
hm didnt knew that Churchill is to blame for greenhouse gases, hm...
interesting.


Never made the correlation with Churchill and greenhouse gases.  Just giving folks an "often overlooked" side of Churchill.  

Karaya
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Offline Dago

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2005, 09:09:44 AM »
We choose to maintain the right of self-regulation.  Besides, its all about methane from cows farts anyway.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

storch

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2005, 09:14:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dago
We choose to maintain the right of self-regulation.  Besides, its all about methane from cows farts anyway.
wait, now I'm all confused. I thought it was about "greenhouse gases"

Offline lazs2

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2005, 10:06:21 AM »
Hmm... I am still waiting for the ice age in the year 2000 that all those grant wanting scientists predicted when I was a teen..

Aren't the only "scientists" that are predicting bad global warming the ones who want grants to "study" it?  

as for a tax... I say no on tax.. if you give the government tax... for any reason....  it does nothing but grow the government...  give them more power over you... fine if you are a brit or some other socialist but... not here.

if gas is in a shortage then the price will rise and the problem will solve itself as it should... free market.   Average fuel economy in the U.S. is probly closer to 25 mpg than 12 tho.   Even a new 525 hp Vette gets like 25 mpg.

Those who "want something done" really mean that they are about tired of getting screwed by their government while the U.S. leans on us a lot easier.. it is simply jealousy of the most petty and destructive type.  

I would like to see the figures for amount of pollution per dollar of product produced.  

lazs

Offline weaselsan

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2005, 11:25:13 AM »
We'll sign on when China does....

Junk Science

Offline Eagler

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2005, 11:40:49 AM »
need to save this thread for July ... its a freezin 59 here!
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Offline NUKE

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2005, 11:47:38 AM »
There is no reason to conserve fuel or try to limit it's use through taxes. Any fuel we save now will be burned later, having ZERO effect on the gross emmisions of gases and ZERO effect on the finite amount of fuel in this world.

Offline weaselsan

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Will the USA green up its act?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2005, 11:48:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
need to save this thread for July ... its a freezin 59 here!


Going down to 38 tonite here in Daytona....Was going to go out with the boat and do some Red Snapper fishing. Not now!