Author Topic: Iowa Class BB  (Read 5179 times)

Offline Mr No Name

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Iowa Class BB
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2005, 10:49:38 PM »
woohooo BBs!
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2005, 11:57:11 AM »
A quick note on shell size:

The size of the shell wasn't the whole story on firepower. While the Yamato's 18" guns were some of the biggest ever made, IIRC the 16" of the Iowas were actually MORE powerful due to muzzle velocity and other factors (radar controlled aim certainly helped, too).

Same holds true in the Atlantic: I think the Italians had a BB with 16-18" but still lacked the hitting power of a Brit or French ship with 14-15" guns.
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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2005, 12:20:00 PM »
The muzzle velocity on BBs has more to do with range than hitting power beyond a certain point, and as I recall the 18" on the Yamato had a muzzle velocity up there with the US 16" guns.  As far as bombardment goes, the 18" should simply be superior in terms of impact.

The Italians didn't have anything with 18" guns.  I'll have to check on the 16" guns.
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Offline Saxman

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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2005, 02:00:26 PM »
May not have been an Italian battlewagon, but the point I was making is that the overall size of the gun didn't have everything to do with hitting power, and that some ships with smaller guns packed more punch per shell.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2005, 02:16:34 PM »
The only BBs to carry 18" guns were the Yamatos.

Various American, British, Japanese and, perhaps, Italian BBs carried 16" guns.  German BBs in WWII had 15" guns.  The only 'modern' 14" guns that I am aware of were carried by the British King George V BBs, all others being WWI legacy guns.
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Offline EagleDNY

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Iowa vs Yamato
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2005, 02:33:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
The muzzle velocity on BBs has more to do with range than hitting power beyond a certain point, and as I recall the 18" on the Yamato had a muzzle velocity up there with the US 16" guns.  As far as bombardment goes, the 18" should simply be superior in terms of impact.

The Italians didn't have anything with 18" guns.  I'll have to check on the 16" guns.


Last quarters Naval History magazine had a good "what if" on BBs - they came to the conclusion that although the Yamato had larger guns, the accuracy and ROF advantage of the Iowas would likely give them the advantage in any head to head fight.  

Either BB would be fine as far as I am concerned - I'd just like to see something a lot tougher than the "2 Bomb Wonder" cruiser we have now.  An entire group made up of surface combatants only would be interesting, and I think it would actually add quite a bit to gameplay to have to hunt down and kill that floating ack-island before it got in range of your base.  Maybe having 20 x 5" guns available might actually stop the divebombing suicidal lancs too.

EagleDNY
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Offline icemaw

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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2005, 02:43:26 PM »
What would be really cool is for each fleet to have its own identity. IE Yorktown escorted by Missouri. Kaga escorted by Yamoto. Etc etc etc.
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Offline Midnight

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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2005, 03:24:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by icemaw
What would be really cool is for each fleet to have its own identity. IE Yorktown escorted by Missouri. Kaga escorted by Yamoto. Etc etc etc.


I second that. Also, the whole concept of different boats in the groups would be more exciting to gameplay anyway. It could be something like different size airfields like we already have, but would be more meaningful because the capabilities would be different based on the group.

----

For that matter, task groups would be more exciting if the boats acted more realisticly. At least if damaged boats started to slow down...
The group leader boat (CV or BB) would determine the speed of the other boats in the group. As it was damaged, the whole group would start to slow down and stay with it.

If a group were being persued, it could get away if the lead boat were damaged, or the persuing group could catch up if the lead boat of the group being chased were damaged.

Offline EagleDNY

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16" Guns ROF / Ammo Link
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2005, 03:24:47 PM »
Some interesting data on the 16" guns carried by the Iowa Class BBs is located here:

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.htm

Good data in game terms - ROF of 2/Rnds minute and data on the size of the projectiles and range/accuracy tables.  Good place for HT to get gun data from (hint hint) ;)


EagleDNY

Offline EagleDNY

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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2005, 04:23:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RAIDER14
or how bout a battleship like the Battleship Texas. The Texas served most of the WW2 theaters

here is the Battleship Texas's batttle record
http://www.battleshiptexas.org/wwii.htm


The Texas did have quite a distinguished record during the war, but for AH gameplay purposes she really doesn't have the AAA needed to survive.  Her 5" guns don't elevate for AA work, so she would be limited to her 40mm and 3" mounts.

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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2005, 04:35:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by icemaw
What would be really cool is for each fleet to have its own identity. IE Yorktown escorted by Missouri. Kaga escorted by Yamoto. Etc etc etc.

I would like to see, at least some, separate CV and BB groups so that people don't insist on bringing the CVs into range of the blinking shore batteries just so they can pop off some 8" shells from the CA.

Listen people, CVs are superior to bigs guns because their "artillery" is much longer ranged and much more accurate.  Use it!


EagleDNY,

Yeah, I agree, though it could get ugly if Yamato landed a lucky hit early on and disabled that fire control.  Both were awesome ships and the visciral impact of a BB really has to be seen to be believed.  I have seen both BBs and CVs and the BBs just carry a feeling of intrinisc threat and power and heavy steel that the CV lacked (Nimitz class CV and Iowa class BB in my case).
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 04:39:20 PM by Karnak »
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Offline EagleDNY

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Iowa vs Yamato
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2005, 05:09:32 PM »
I can see the lure of having the Yamato running around, but that would make HT have to model 18", 6.1", 5", and 25mm guns that aren't modeled now.  If we push for an Iowa, all he has to model is the 16" since we already have US 5" and 40mm models.

True this is a "wish list", but I'm hoping to actually see this wish come true so I'll push for the easier programming and hope that HT wants to give us all a Christmas present.

EagleDNY

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Offline Jester

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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2005, 02:22:07 AM »
There is a whole study that compares the best WW2 Battleships against each other. Some interesting reading. You can find it here:  http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

Below is an Excerpt from the report talking about the Main Battery Guns:

GENERAL COMMENTS: The Japanese 18.1"/45 reigned supreme as the most destructive piece of naval ordnance ever mounted afloat. However, its ballistic performance was not particularly inspiring, and the performance of its Type 91 shells was inferior to the norm, partly because they were optimized for underwater trajectories 7. Immediately below it in terms of power is the US 16"/50. Good ballistics, and superb shells, give this gun a tremendous whallop, and in combat terms I rate it as the equal of the Japanese weapon, largely because of its shells. Below that, in an upset, comes Richelieu's 15"/45, as the best all-around 15" gun, and feel the most useful in an actual combat situation. The Italian 15"/50 was an enormously potent weapon from a raw power perspective, but it sacrificed a lot in order to achieve that performance, and had decidedly inferior shells. I should note, though, that I am still investigating this particular gun and her shells in more detail; the information available on her shells is rather spotty. Bismarck's 15"/47 shell is 10% lighter than the French and Italian, although her cyclic rate is attractive, and her guns were very accurate. At the bottom of the spectrum, King George V's 14" gun clearly doesn't have nearly the oomph necessary to compete with the rest of these guys.
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Offline Geary420

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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2005, 05:40:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I'd like to see the true historical range for the big guns... They could fire shells beyond visual range -- up to 25 miles or so. I'd love to soften up a field from almost a sector away while the fleet moves closer.

I'd also love a rangefinder too, but that's just me.


You can already fire over half a sector, max range on the 8" is 31k, which I believe works out to 17 miles and change, which is good enough for me.  As for a range finder there already is one for static targets(maybe you don't know the secret uber aim hack ;), and shooting enemy cv's would be rediculously easy if you had a rangefinder for that.

Offline frank3

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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2005, 05:47:27 AM »
Im not sure if this is already mentioned in this thread, but what about 'lone'  BB's? Im sure the ships didn't always sail with escort? (Except CV's)