Author Topic: killing each other.  (Read 1141 times)

Offline *NDM*JohnnyX

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killing each other.
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2005, 08:12:49 AM »
But some dinosaurs had feathers!

And explain the duck billed platypus por favor.

*EDIT* This post seemed a bit like I was trolling, I just wanted to point out some absurd animals :noid  Can't fit platypus into enough forum posts nowadays.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 08:18:40 AM by *NDM*JohnnyX »

Offline SkyRock

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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2005, 08:47:09 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
 however one species evolving into a totally different species does not happen and according to the fossil record has never happened.  

You are quite wrong on this.    It has not yet been studied to the point where insurmountable evidence would out-weigh present lack of evidence, yet there are studies going on at this present date to collect such data.  Just to give you an idea of what type of studies are starting to occur, since the study of macroevolution is just now being helped along by new DNA and genome data, many scientist are tackling the study of macroevolution from this new medium.  Take for instance the link between mammals and reptiles, of which the overall macroevolution would rely seeing how much of the "theory" of evolution rests on the idea that reptiles came first, as you have stated there is no fossil evidence of transitional fossil forms.  This is simply not true.  In the reptilian fetus, two developing bones from the head eventually form two bones in the reptilian lower jaw, the quadrate and the articular. Surprisingly, the corresponding developing bones in the mammalian fetus eventually form the anvil and hammer of the unique mammalian middle ear (also known more formally as the incus and malleus, respectively).  There are many other instances where transitional development can be observed in different species including links between the species of great apes.(which includes humans)  The evidence of linkage can also be observed on a scale which is grand, yet simplistic.  In spite of the extensive variation of form and function among organisms, several fundamental criteria characterize all life. Some of the macroscopic properties that characterize all of life are (1) replication, (2) heritability (characteristics of descendents are correlated with those of ancestors), (3) catalysis, and (4) energy utilization (metabolism). At a very minimum, these four functions are required to generate a physical historical process that can be described by a phylogenetic tree. If every living species descended from an original species that had these four obligate functions, then all living species today should necessarily have these functions (although a somewhat trivial conclusion). Most importantly, all modern species should have inherited the structures that perform these functions. Thus, a basic prediction of the genealogical relatedness of all life, combined with the constraint of gradualism, is that organisms should be very similar in the particular mechanisms and structures that execute these four basic life processes.  It is the fact that, we(all living things) are related by these processes, that should stimulate the doubter to be thorough in his research before hinting that  the relationship does not exist.

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storch

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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2005, 09:02:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SkyRock
   It has not yet been studied to the point where insurmountable evidence would out-weigh present lack of evidence, yet there are studies going on at this present date to collect such data.  
nor will such evidence likely ever be produced.  but your are clearly entitled to practice your faith freely in the US.  darwinism is a mighty religion, I would wager possibly much more powerful than the other great faiths on the planet.  if I may ask, why are your high priests so condescending?

Offline DipStick

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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2005, 09:54:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Nothing I said referred to evolution.

You can think whatever you like about evolution and it matters not a whit to me, but if you think chimps don't show a remarkable genetic similarity to us you're standing on real iffy ground.  Make up whatever fairy tale suits you to explain why they do, but that they do is a fact.

I was responding to the original post not you.

There are alot of "similar" things in nature, what's your point?

Offline Stang

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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2005, 10:07:26 AM »
:confused:







































:huh





































:O


















































:noid

Offline zarkov

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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2005, 10:34:13 AM »
Evolution is a CROCK.

It's a known fact that the Earth is actually the back of a giant tortoise.  All "proof" to the contrary is merely smoke and mirrors or ridiculous heresy.  The only thing more ridiculous than this supposed "theory" are all those crazy middle-eastern religions extolling the existence of "one true God".  Frankly, any religion with only one God must be inferior to any with a pantheon of Gods.  And that is a FACT.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2005, 10:36:41 AM by zarkov »

Offline SkyRock

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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2005, 10:54:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
nor will such evidence likely ever be produced.  but your are clearly entitled to practice your faith freely in the US.  darwinism is a mighty religion, I would wager possibly much more powerful than the other great faiths on the planet.  if I may ask, why are your high priests so condescending?

I just gave some of the evidence which is already available.   All life forms on this planet are linked, that is a fact!  That is not speculation.  
You are kidding, right?  Darwinism a religion? LMAO!  
BTW,  I said nothing about Darwin!

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Offline mechanic

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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2005, 11:24:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
Blahaha

Drugs are bad.

And oh yeah!

Click me.


:rofl

Adam Sandler is infact a chimp pretending to be a man, and making outrageously funny and cheap movies.










seriously though, im glad to see so many responses, some very interesting view on evolution and war, and god, everything.

maybe i should stuck this in the O'club to draw more of the same crowd. but to be honest there is not one piece of bad taste of sick flaming here, maybe we arnt all doomed to kill each other.

the whole world just needs their own choice of MMOG, chimps and men playing aces high in harmony.

*pass left to sandman*
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Offline mechanic

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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2005, 11:31:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Strangely, this thread offers the greatest evidence of our evolutionary link to chimpanzies than just about anything else I've read.  One chimp farted amidst the group, started a fight, and now they're all flinging poo at one another and rolling in feces.

-- Todd/Leviathn




i do beg to differ oh mighty top chimp of chimps. i started no fight, i simply expresesed my honest view with a touch of humour.



if anyone is fighting its because we can't help it as a species.



oh yeah you remember that, i forgot, the best solutoin is to make everything around you a joke, isnt that what they teach at BK school?

damn, i wish i could make everything so trivial instead of having a serious boring and obviously stupid existance flinging poo.  trouble with thinking too much is you can never go back to never thinking at all.

essentially you and I for instance are the same model of being, funny how we could come to such different view points in such a short space of time. niether of us is right, we just evolved our brain in different directions at some point, most likely very early on in developement in the whom.

anyhow, looks like im starting another fight (stating my view) so i will retract, but in honesty sir, this thread was just an expression of me, a true and realistic serious view of what i was thinking about for a few minutes.

im sorry, im a creative soul, sharing myself and indulging in others is what makes life fun for me.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline mechanic

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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2005, 11:33:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Morpheus
These are my feelings on the topic.

Other things to worry about.



no they aint, those are someone elses feeling on these topics.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2005, 12:47:17 PM »
Hello Mechanic,

I'm breaking one of my cardinal rules here and posting with a headache so intense that I can barely see straight, much less think cogently... So my apologies for the quality of the following...

I'm not you are aware of this, but in your stream of consciousness above you have essentially recapitulated some of the primary arguments of what has come to be known as "evolutionary psychology" which claims to be the study of why our genes have evolved to make us behave the way we do. Why, for instance, do "sane" people kill their children, fight wars, and so on?

This discussion used to be handled by theologians and ethicists, but in recent years a number of factors in the academy; the enforced assumption of the non-existance of God,  the resulting inability to posit absolutes, and the desire of the physical sciences to provide a unified theory to explain everything (guys like Richard Dawkins are leading that particular charge) have led to the rise of this pseudo-scientific school of philosophy which assumes we are all essentially machines designed by "natural selection" and seeks to explain why our CPUs function they way they do. Although proponents of evolutionary psychology, like Stephen Pinker use traditional terms like "evil" they have taken out a subjective existential meaning. The problem of evil has essentially been removed from debate, because evil doesn't exist and to a great extent, no one is really culpable for their actions - their genes made them do it.

While they claim to be scientific, what they have really done is create a replacement religion, and yes Darwinism is a religious system as many of it's practioners and defenders are willing to admit. As Prof. Michael Ruse, author of a number of works of Darwinian apologetics, including Darwinism Defended, put it:

"Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion--a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit in this one complaint . . . the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.”

By his reference to "from the beginning" he is probably making reference to  Darwin's popularizer T.H. Huxley, who openly campaigned for evolution becoming the starting place for a new model of philosophy and ethics and religion founded on Darwinism. The committment to Darwinism as a foundation for philosophy can be found in the works of Popper, Skinner, and most of the evolutionists who have tackled philosophy in the 20th and 21st centuries. All of them have embraced the idea articulated by Ruse that "Nevertheless, I have now come to see that our biological origins do make a difference, and that they can and should be a starting-point for philosophy today"

But what kind of philosophy does this committment to "Darwinian natural selection" produce? Well certainly one that is ultimately amoral, arbitrary, and at places violently self-contradictory, and not one in which terms like "rights" or ultimately "right and wrong" have real meaning. I first tackled this hopeless hodgpodge philosopy in writing a review on evolutionary psychologist Stephen Pinker's "How the Mind Works" which had created quite a stir coming as it did immediately after Pinker had published an article in the NYT magazine asserting essentially that genes were the root cause of parents killing their newborns.

Here are some of the relevant sections dealing with why philosophy and ethics founded on Darwinianism is a hopeless endeavor and one in which the proponents openly acknowledge we must assume that which they find to be verifiably false, without even being able to explain why we must act in an ethical fashion in the first place. In other words, ethics in evolutionary psychology is a necessarily an empty game of make-believe:

Quote
Pinker obviously understands some of the problems his system creates, he notes that the concept that our genes predispose us to certain actions undercuts any possible basis for "free will and hence moral responsibility"32 In other words, if science certifies that our actions are caused by our "selfish genes" how will we will escape the trap of what Pinker calls "Creeping Exculpation?" This Pinker hopes to do by setting up Science and Morality as "separate spheres of reasoning." But while Science is grounded in Pinker's world on observation, conjecture, and experimentation and is therefore a recapitulation of the "brute facts" of life, ethics is to be grounded on a "idealization of human beings that makes the ethics game playable."33 This "game" of idealizations includes positing things as truth that Pinker's own theories dismiss as nonsense, namely that people are "free, sentient, rational, equivalent agents whose behavior is uncaused." The "game" allows us to come to conclusions that "can be sound even though the world, as seen by science, does not really have uncaused events." Without realizing it, Pinker has reinvented the "double theory of truth" that bedeviled the philosophy and theology of the middle ages. He creates a system of ethics founded on presumptions that his own scientific system says are verifiably false, and then expects people to follow it.

Sadly what Pinker never seems to grasp is that both his ethical and scientific systems are trading entirely on borrowed capital. He frequently uses all manner of phrases in place of the God he seeks to deny, such as "nature", "natural selection" or "Darwinism", all of which he uses as grand forces for producing design. His language is often the language that theists use, but at the critical moment when a theist would invoke the Deity he inserts some neutral force that allows him to maintain his autonomy rather than conceding that the design inherent in the world is a reflection of the fact of the Creator revealed in scripture. It often seems obvious that Pinker sees the prospect of God, made plain by natural revelation, and the gyrations that Pinker goes through to erase him are often baffling. A good example of this occurs in his section on the apparent design inherent in human beings:
 

    "The eye has so many parts, arranged so precisely that it appears to have been designed in advance with the goal of putting together something that sees. The same is true for our other organs. Our joints are lubricated to pivot smoothily, our teeth meet to sheer and grind, our hearts pump blood every organ seems to have been designed with a function in mind. One of the reasons God was invented was to be the mind that formed and executed life's plans. The laws of the world work forward not backwards… What else but the plans of God could effect the teleology (goal-directedness) of life on earth?

    Darwin showed what else."34



Pinker's book is brimming with passages like the one above, and each one is a testament to the fact that Pinker presupposes the falsity of Christian theism. He speaks of "laws of the world" and at the same time he denies the only possible giver and foundation for these laws. He admits that there is a "goal directedness" to life on earth and then immediately searches for an alternate solution to the obvious answer that presents itself. The fact of complex design screams at him from every facet of creation, and Pinker sees it as a verification of natural selection, and a proof that God cannot possibly exist. As Andrew Ferguson put it "It is one of the many curiosities of Darwinism that the more the world shows signs of design, the more it disproves a Designer of the world."35

32    Pinker, How the Mind Works, 54
33    Ibid., 55
34    Ibid., 156
35    Ferguson, How Steven Pinker’s Mind Works


So you may choose to go down the "our genes make us fight for the watering hole" road as an explanation for our behavior and eliminate any non-mechanical answers to why we do what we do, but be warned, followed to its ultimate end the kind of non-ethics Nietzche proposed becomes more and more coherent. If I'm programmed to kill you and take your resources and you have no absolute rights, and there is no absolute right or wrong, then things like the Holocaust and other Genocides are ultimately simply outgrowths of a highly systematic application of our "programming." Besides as you pointed out, "they cull the weak" and who are we to stand in the way of the desires of the pitiless god of Natural selection?

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2005, 01:15:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon

...snip...

So you may choose to go down the "our genes make us fight for the watering hole" road as an explanation for our behavior and eliminate any non-mechanical answers to why we do what we do, but be warned, followed to its ultimate end the kind of non-ethics Nietzche proposed becomes more and more coherent. If I'm programmed to kill you and take your resources and you have no absolute rights, and there is no absolute right or wrong, then things like the Holocaust and other Genocides are ultimately simply outgrowths of a highly systematic application of our "programming." Besides as you pointed out, "they cull the weak" and who are we to stand in the way of the desires of the pitiless god of Natural selection?

- SEAGOON


In fact, even a superficial reading of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich would clearly convince that the social application of Neitche's thoughts were direct and immediate drivesr for Hitlers choices and his view of himself.

If we grant that our "conciences" relflect eveolutionary programming for individual and social advantage of the species, how can we call Hitler anything more than dysfunctional? Right and wrong would be meaninigless with out an external set of rules, not subject to the desires of a culture..... and dont forget, Nazi Germany WAS a self determined culture, so sholuldnt the world at large have a nonjudgemental diverse view of its choices?



...Or, are we willing to consider that there is such a thing as absolute truth, not subject to individual desires and interpretations?
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Offline mechanic

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« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2005, 04:00:03 PM »
well this is a very good post for a head ache seagoon, and imformative. I have little to no knoledge of many philosophers or historians so i am in no way stating anything, ceartainly not that hitler was good or anything although simaril bring up a good point. had nazi germany existed 150 years before would it not have been expected that a temendous and strong military force would bring havoc to the 'infidels'?

what I'm getting at i suppose, with retrospect, is that it seems many people in history have cause majoy suffering through messages from many different gods. these days in the non-fearing 1st world we are more arogant and defencive to the words and thoughts in our darkest and lightest places.

is there something to be said for why a person become a killer, a rapist, a dictator?

everyone on earth understands the futility of war yet will never cease to partake in them, support them, march around saying they are terrible, sit on our tulips and wait for the killing to continue.


it is our fate, peace is being diverted by power we do not understand to stop us detroying the rest of the planet.


its more an idea for fiction writting or something, but still, worth thinking about.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2005, 05:42:50 PM »
Man what a gloomy outlook on life!!!  Guess this is the time of the year for that though.  Christmas season can be very melancholy for some folks, and I include myself in that mindset.  However I've discovered that working on something like a project takes my mind off my feelings of hopelessness.

I'd wager that with more exercise and a purpose to work toward or a goal in mind, might give a brighter outlook on things.  Anyway that's my .02 and salute Mechanic.  Your post is thought provoking, but at the same time almost requires too much thinking.  I've come to the conclusion that to make the world a better place begins with my effort, mine alone.  It won't happen here on this BB because talk is what it's worth.  As is thinking.:)

I don't think it is in man's best interest to war with each other.  Mankind figured out a long time ago that survival was best served by getting along with the neighbors.  This is the evolutionary nature of man, if you want to call it that.  It has purpose and ensures survival.   Even with war sometimes.  Peace is not the absence of war.  Slaves exist under those conditions.  Peace is respect by others who think you have a good sense of justice.




Les

Offline mechanic

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« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2005, 05:59:50 PM »
good post leslie.

rest assured that my thoughts here are fleeting at the most. tourbled not during my sleep, am I :)
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.