Author Topic: How about changing the town capture mechanics?  (Read 2089 times)

Offline Kweassa

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« on: December 15, 2005, 07:45:18 PM »
I was thinking - just a loose idea at the moment...

 What if the town capture mechanics changes to "capture and hold the flag" style of urban battles, instead of the current "insert 10 coins" style?

 For instance, instead of having to kill all the town buildings and walk in 10 troops at a given time, the objective would be something like;

1) land 20 troops and walk them into the map room
2) drop 3 field supplies on the town (supplies used to set up a town HQ)
3) drop 3 vehicle supplies on the town
4) there is no need to kill all the buildings in the town
5) achieve conditions 1, 2, 3 - and the ownership of the town changes

 In other words, the capture conditions become harder, but the there is no need to kill the entire town to capture it, and besides, it would be more fun. Busting town buildings would be optional, a condition to aid the town capture, not a pure necessity.

 What I'm visioning is a "capture the flag, set up a HQ, hold the town until supplies arrive to capture it" sort of urban battle. This may sound complex, but it really isn't. Please carefully read the 'process' of capturing the town I will explain below, and imagine what it might be like.



* Initially, a town will be empty of defenses except 3~4 acks.

* When a defender's M3 or C-47 drops troops on a defender's town, the troops will walk in and set up defenses at the closest town building. Five troops will take up one town building - and the town building where friendly troops 'set the defenses up', will be visually confirmable - maybe something like a big flag with Bish/Rook/Knit waving over it.

* When 5 friendly troops "set up" inside a building, the building will start firing 20mm acks from it.

* The attacking side doesn't need to kill all the buildings to capture the town - but obviously, when many many defending troops are "set up" inside the town buildings, it will be impossible to just walk troops in.

* So the attacking side, will have to identify and kill the town buildings which are shooting acks at them. Ofcourse, when the defending side "set up" only 3~4 town buildings it won't be too difficult - fly over the town, see where the shots are coming from, and strafe dead the town building.

* But if the defenses were organized and they have set up massive number of troops inside the town, virtually all the town buildings can each act as ack stations (!!!) Imagine all the town buildings are firing 20mm acks at your plane - this is pretty realistic in the sense that a small number of fighter/jabo planes smack at the middle of enemy controlled city/town would be near suicide.

* So, if many many defending troops "set up" the defenses at the town, then large, massive air strikes are necessary. You may have to turn the entire town into a parking lot to walk your troops in.

* However, that's not the end. Once the town defenses are all taken care of, 20 troops, 3 field supplies, 3 vehicle supplies must be dropped at the town. When these supplies land at the town and troops walk in the map room, the ownership of the town, and the airfield tied to it, will finally change.

* The positive side for the attacking side is that now, the progress of town capture is not limited by a certain time. It doesn't matter if you've dropped troops or supplies 1 or 2 hours ago. The progress is solid and persistent, and no automatic "town building up" will reverse it.

* This progress will be verified by clicking on the town and seeing the progress. It will show info such as:

Quote

=================
Town Capture Progress
=================

Required Troops:    11/20
Required Vehicle Supplies: 2/3
Required Field supplies: 3/3


 
* Therefore, even if it takes a long time, as long as the town and its airspace remains under control, there is always a chance to capture the town regardless of town building reupping or not.

* The town capture progress, can also be viewed by the defending side. When all the town defenses are down and the moment the first required trooper belonging to the attackers enters the maproom unscathed, the town enters a capture phase.

* To reverse the process, the defending side has to land and walk in its own troops. If the defenders walk in 10 troops, it will diminish 20 troops the attackers walked in. 6 defending troops worth 3 supplies.

* In other words, once the attacking troop enters the map room, the defenders have to walk in 1 defender troop to kill 2 attacker troops. The defenders have to walk in 2 defender troops to diminish 1 attacker supplies.

* For example, the attackers killed all the town defenses. They start to walk in their troops and land supplies. The progress is, 8 troops made it to the map room, 2 supplies landed. For the defending side, in order to make this null and void, and be able to station troops inside town buildings at the 'defending phase', it needs to walk in;

  4(to kill 8 attacking troops) + 4(to diminish 2 attacker supplies landed) = 8 troops

 .... into the map room to regain control.


* Therefore, as harsh as this may sound for the attacking side, once the town is under control by the attackers, and the airfield troops/supplies are down, it would be almost impossible for the defenders to reverse the capture process and regain full control of the town again - as long as the attackers are present.



* To sum it up;

1. In the 'contesting phase'
- five defending troops walk into one town building to set up one 20mm ack
- the moment a single attacking trooper enters the map room, it changes to 'capture phase'

2. In the 'capture phase'
- when defenders drop troops at the town, they do not set up defenses in town buildings. They head for the maproom
- 1 defending troop kills 2 attacking troops made it to the map room
- 2 defending troop kills 1 attacker supply landed at the town

3. For the attackers to capture the town and field
- enter 20 troops into map room
- drop 3 vehicle supplies and 3 field supplies at  the town

4. For the defenders to drive out attackers from the town and shift to 'contesting phase' again
- kill all attacker troops and supplies


The Pros

 This sounds complicated, but it really isn't. It's just a simple set of new rules and conditions which makes town captures change - not necessarily for easier or harder.

 As it is, town capture is made difficult because the entire town needs to be dead, and 10 troops must enter when the town is all down. It can take hours and hours to capture one field, despite a horde completely owns the airspace, because a goon hunter can pick out a few goons... and then the town will reup.. and all the progress becomes null and void.

 However, in this suggestion, the town doesn't need to be down. Drop the required stuff and the town is captured. This actually makes blitzing the map easier.. !!

 If there is an unprepared town, no defenses set up - an NOE mission with very good preparations:  2 goons for troops, 6 goons for supplies, some fighter/jabo to kill initial town defenses... can take the town in a matter of minutes. Just kill the basic town acks, drop troops and supps and that's it. Or, a well prepared ground assault also could capture a field within a matter of minutes - tanks head in first, knock the acks down, then the M3s come in and bam, its over.

 This will force people to respond quicker to defenses - instead of leaving fields empty and undefended, they will have to respond immediately, verify enemy capture phase, and counter it - or the town falls in a matter of minutes.

 Also, if a horde takes control of the airspace and works long and persistently towards capturing the town, then every troop, every supply dropped on the town counts. There's no time limit. The town building reupping doesn't mean anything. The defending side must actively enter its own defender troops to delay/push back capture progress. One or two goon hunters will not work, because even only if one or two troops walk in, they will stay there and count. No automatic town up will nullify it.

 This, actually makes field captures easier.


 However, IF the defenses are well prepared, then things change. Imagine a situation where the defenders guess a big attack is coming. They start moving massive number of troops to the town. All the town buildings are now armed - the town now turns into a gigantic patch of ack formation. It will be like seeing the task group acks on land. This represents a town fully prepared for war, with its AA defenses set up. It will make jabo/strafing much much harder than it ever was, and attacking fighters won't want to venture near the airfield at low alts.

 A situation like this calls for large number of air strikes, be it jabos or bombers, to the town, and totally flatten it, to have a chance to capture it.
 
 
 
 All in all,

 it makes unprepared towns much easier to capture,
 and fully prepared towns much harder to capture.

 When enemy attack is imminent, some people will grab fighters, others will have to grab M3s and move troops into the town to prepare for a fight.

 It's not a real urban battle as in the First Person Shooter sense, but I think it's gonna make the game really really interesting.

Offline frank3

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2005, 03:32:59 AM »
I very much like this idea, obviously, it took alot of thinking! A nicely set up idea indeed

Although 1 comment, you say the to-be-captured field needs 3 field supplies, but that would take 3 C-47's! wouldn't that be abit much?

All in all, the minimum amount of Skytrains will be 6!

Offline ramzey

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2005, 04:04:53 AM »
basicly you ask to use 7 people to fly/drive  goon or m3 insted of current 1
its easier to flat town then find 6 goon pilots or somebody who will like  spend 1,5 hour driving m3 to capture 1 field (if its undefended)

also there gonna be 6 easy targets to kill insted of 1, cuz if somebody start process of capturing you can expect him to  come back  another 6 times.

Imagine 6 guys taken from fight and fly 3 sectors goon when 1 plane can pork most of resources on airfield and stop any offensive actions for hours.

In current conditions of MA, if airfield is defended it can take hours to capture it.

According to your idea jumping from island to island would be impossible without porking 3-4 nearstest bases around for 1-2 hours, to not let anyone interrupt capturing process (totally flat airfields).
Would be enough to set up 1 tiger to kill any currage of attacking troops.

conclusion , noone would like to play base capture game , most of people will focus on furballing. BAse captured you wil saw only sundays, during squad nights when you can find 20+ people to start such a mission.


Idea with fighting troops and increse defence abilities of town by adding more ack is nice, supplies not

Offline Kweassa

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2005, 05:41:47 AM »
Good point. Better think of an alternative to make it more compact.

 Still, I'd like to think the town up/down not affecting town capture progress would make some kind of impact to equalize the suggested problems. It already takes a lot of goons to capture a field as it is - its not a rare thing to see a target airfield totally under the control of the "horde" and yet still remain uncaptured because the town ups again and again, and goons being hunted down everytime.

 Also, I'd like to keep the "defensive troops taking up positions inside town buildings" idea - perhaps this idea could be used alone.

Offline Kweassa

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2005, 05:41:47 AM »
Oops doppelt post.

Offline frank3

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2005, 06:36:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
basicly you ask to use 7 people to fly/drive  goon or m3 insted of current 1
its easier to flat town then find 6 goon pilots or somebody who will like  spend 1,5 hour driving m3 to capture 1 field (if its undefended)

also there gonna be 6 easy targets to kill insted of 1, cuz if somebody start process of capturing you can expect him to  come back  another 6 times.

Imagine 6 guys taken from fight and fly 3 sectors goon when 1 plane can pork most of resources on airfield and stop any offensive actions for hours.

In current conditions of MA, if airfield is defended it can take hours to capture it.

According to your idea jumping from island to island would be impossible without porking 3-4 nearstest bases around for 1-2 hours, to not let anyone interrupt capturing process (totally flat airfields).
Would be enough to set up 1 tiger to kill any currage of attacking troops.

conclusion , noone would like to play base capture game , most of people will focus on furballing. BAse captured you wil saw only sundays, during squad nights when you can find 20+ people to start such a mission.


Idea with fighting troops and increse defence abilities of town by adding more ack is nice, supplies not


Nobody ever said war was easy either Ramzey

Offline Ghosth

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2005, 07:42:31 AM »
Hmmm 7 targets instead of 1.

Hmmmm Seems to me that means more easy C-47 kills for everyone.

Isn't that a good thing??


As to your "ack houses", as long as you can tell which ones are "hot" in a bomber at 15k, sure, why not. Heck just come through, level the town flat. Then start the process.

As to the ack itself, tie the size of round it shoots to the # of people in the house.

IE 1 - 3 = .303
     4- 6 = .50
     7- 10 = 20mm

Offline Tilt

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2005, 09:19:40 AM »
I would like troops to do more stuff.

1) occupy town buildings (whether the building is destroyed or not) and shoot enemy troops from them.

2)destroy enemy town buildings (sapper troops)



If you release troops at an enemy town that has some buildings up they divide amongst the buildings still up and blow them up.

Some may get shot by troops occupying the buildings.

Whether 1 troop = 1 building and if you loose that trooper blowing the building up .........I am not sure either way..........its a detail.



If you have taken a town you can re enforce its defences by adding troops that go hide in the buildings (one trooper building) and shoot at enemy stuff. (the buildings takes on the properties of a .303 rifle and after that behaves like a .303 ground gun). Destroying the building kills the trooper in it.

Towns could still be taken by the one goon............ but if the M3 arrives early and the town is not taken down he does not have to wait forever or consider his mission wasted he could release and kill some buildings.

Equally the second goon/m3 is re enforcing the capture rather than wasting the  mission because he got there late.

Troopers would have tracerless rifles. troopers should lose their icons IMO
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Offline Saxman

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2005, 10:04:43 AM »
Y'know, Ramz, that sorta enemy suppression sounds a lot like how things were done during the REAL war. ;)

I also don't see it changing things all THAT much. All most anyone seems to do in there is furball, anyway.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline ramzey

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2005, 12:45:18 PM »
yea, but thats AH MA reality, why you think we dont have complex engine managment for aircrafts? ;)

Offline Kweassa

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2005, 05:05:41 PM »
I guess the most satisfactory result would be seen when troops change from the current passive status as an 'object' and move on to an AI 'being'..

 The whole point of this was to perhaps spark a bit of variation and a pinch of small realism to the town/city battles - but the real reason that makes brain storming difficult is that ultimately, the troops are totally passive..

Offline Bad31st

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2005, 09:52:16 PM »
Like the idea :aok However it's pretty tough to find one or two goon pilots as it is let alone 6 per capture.

Prehaps if the C47 with troops or field supplies were given the formation option it would work better. You would still have the dynamic of troop defended towns but wouldn't need quite so many goon pilots.

It'd be kinda cool to see 30 troops in chutes any way but I guess that is a different wish.

Offline NoBaddy

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2005, 10:19:26 AM »
One simple thing that would make captures a bit tuffer is to put something besides 88mm ack in the towns.
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Offline Debonair

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2005, 11:36:22 AM »
Town isn't captured until peace & order are restored & a new mayor is elected in a Carter approved vote

Offline slimey_J

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How about changing the town capture mechanics?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2006, 12:39:33 PM »
I really like this idea... one thing that it might do is allow the devs to open up the transport planeset a bit.

If I'm not mistaken, the C-47 could carry upwards of 25 soldiers. So, you could increase the number of soldiers a Goon can carry (maybe not 25, but at least 15 or 20, since the number of soldiers required is now a bit more dynamic depending upon the situation in the town). Then, perhaps they could add a new transport or two which sacrifice troop load for speed, etc. Maybe a late model Ju-52 carrying 10 or 15 soldiers, or maybe an Albemarle or a Caproni Ca 148.