The Notorious DA Challenge

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mechanic
I'm afraid i have to disagree, I know him resonably well, and he has certainly impressed me a few time in the arena, not to mention being a civil and inteligible BB member. his anti air gunnery is the finest in the game, and after a heated discusion in here he shot my spit5 down in his pony. the circumstances and advantages he had we're the very basis of his agument. so although i still disagree (i forget about what) his argument still stands at 1 - 0 between us for fighter planes.

what you might dislike in him could be his self confidence ?
(selfconfidence. arogance.  any difference? only in the eyes of the beholder)

Thank-You Batfink. I speak from 15 years of experience, I never professed to be the 'best' at anything, I simply have seen and done everything there is to do in these types of games 1,000 times over, upside-down and backwards.

What alot of people don't realize is being a great MA pilot does not require you to actually be 'great' at anything, sure it helps, but what is really important is being 'good' at everything. Flying skill is obviously important, but in the MA flying skill is no more important than any of the other skills, it gets the most attention because it is the least subtle and most visually obvious skill. Having an over-abundance of flying skill and being weak in the other skills (ie: Situational Awareness, Tactical Awarness, Gunnery, Energy Management, Wingman tactics and Teamwork) is perfectly fine for the DA, you can still be a DA superstar. But, without all of those other skills at the 'good' level you will still be a 'hapless victim' in the MA, I don't care how highly evolved your flying skill is, without the other skills you will be largely 'in-effective' in the MA. My favorite type of MA pilot is the guy with amazing flying skill, piss-poor gunnery and ZERO SA or TA. He just can't understand why he's a 'hapless victim', he's a DA super-star, he knows he can turn inside anyone in 3 turns or less with his Spit, but he goes down in the MA like a 3 dollar hooker. It's these guys who always want to drag soemone to the DA each and every time they get waxed in the MA to assuage their bruised egos, which is usually every 3 to 7 minutes .

I will use Levi as an example of effective skill 'composite', goto the BK's website, download Levi's films. What makes Levi great in those films and others I have of him, is not actually his flying skill, no doubt he is a good pilot, what makes him great is his Gunnery, SA and TA combined with his flying skill. You take away Levi's spectacular gunnery, SA bordering on clairvoyance and uncanny tactical awareness and his flying skill alone would just leave him an interesting target that takes more than the usual 3 seconds to kill. I know about 50  pilots that have flying skill equal to or better than Levi's, but I know only 1 or 2, past or present, that have his unique 'composite' of the full spectrum of fighter skills (specifically Gunnery, SA and TA) that make him the MA force he is today.


I have nothing against the DA personally, as a training tool it is fabulous, I have used it many times for that purpose myself. However, using it to 'measure noodlees' specifically those lil' hurt feelin' noodlees from the MA as judge, trial and jury of someone's relative MA talent is rediculous. That would be like a Miss America Judge rating the contestants solely on the basis of how well manicured their fingernails are. What makes a great pilot is the old axiom, "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts". That's what's great about AH, someone who is merely average at everything will be a 'good' MA fighter pilot. Someone who is 'good' at everything will be a 'great' MA fighter pilot. It is partly this that gives AH such a wide base of appeal. Great-ness or merely 'Good-ness' is not reserved for the tightest turning Spit jocks with a hammerlock masta-merge, or the La7 driver with a trick wrist who can scissor like nobody's business. Great-ness in AH is attainable by anyone willing to be at least good at each of the facets that go into being a fighter pilot (Flying Skill, Gunnery, Situational Awareness, Tactical Awareness, Energy Management, Wingman Tactics, Teamwork).

Zazen

[FX1]

I wish shawk would post something but he doesnt come on the bbs that much. He is not a slack in the da i have never been their with him but he gives credit to anyone that da's him. I would love to da shawk but i have only been flyn with him for 6 years.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Morpheus
I dont dislike anything about him. That's why you and I are totally different people. I dont think that him saying the DA is a worthless place is even remotely close to being correct.

As for you and arguments... Well... You lost yours with me too. So what's your point?

I never said the DA was worthless. As a training tool it serves a very usefull purpose. What is useless is trying to equate the Ho-merge, co-E/Co-alt , same plane, 'noodle measuring' typical DA duel as some sort of meaningfull  'quantification' of a person's MA fighter pilot talent, it isn't. To say that it is, or is even representative in any way of the full spectrum of skills that goes into being a good MA fighter pilot is like saying a car mechanic is good because he can check the engine oil.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
In the DA in a 1 vs 1, you aren't panning your hat and seeing that 2nd dot you would see in the MA, 6k out and wondering if he is gonna come in.

1/2 the battle in the DA is the merge.  To deny it is foolish.  

Karaya

I'd say 90% of the DA is the merge, you lose the merge in the same plane and there is almost no way to recover that lost angle vs. a similiar level  opponent. The DA is all about dropping E as fast as you can to the best corner speed for your plane and racing for the angle. Doing that and blowing that kind of E to 'perhaps' get an angle on a single opponent is usually a guarenteed express trip to the tower in the MA.

Zazen

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
$500 says Zazen would pwn in an Ostie in the DA.   That is your calling Zazzy!  Some 10 year old twirp starts vulching in the DA, bring em down.

Karyaa

Alot has been made of the fact that I do the field gun and Ostwind alot. Some even go so far as to jump to the conclusion that because I am a good shot with 37mm AA guns I must not be able to fighter. This is not the case, there's three reasons I devote alot of time to AA gunnery:

1) Killing vulchers pushes fights away from fields, making for far more frequent, longer lasting and better MA fights overall and alot less gang-vulching.

2) When my team is defensive I can shoot down 2 to 3 times as many per unit time in AA as I can in a fighter, it's like home delivery they come to me, so I can help my team alot more, in military terms this is a force multiplier, I'm multiplying my relative effectiveness by 300% in this situation.

3) I'm really good at it and to stay good at something you need to practice.

The simple fact is, if my team is not being vulched I am in a fighter.

Zazen

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by JMFJ
I think that if you are going to challenge someone to the DA there should be something on the line for the player challenged.

Example: The challenger should be willing to foot the next months HT bill for the player that was challenged, should the challenger lose.  Best of 3

It would definitely be entertaining, I would get off line and go take a seat at the colleseum (DA) to see which gladiator's blood gets spilled.  At least It would mean alot more when a challenge is shouted.

Cause for the most part the only challenges I see are from guys who know they have an advantage, or they won't run there mouth.  You don't see skyrock, chi, or any of the other guys that use the 200 channel alot challenging SHawk to the DA.

JMFJ

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by JMFJ
I think that if you are going to challenge someone to the DA there should be something on the line for the player challenged.

Example: The challenger should be willing to foot the next months HT bill for the player that was challenged, should the challenger lose.  Best of 3

It would definitely be entertaining, I would get off line and go take a seat at the colleseum (DA) to see which gladiator's blood gets spilled.  At least It would mean alot more when a challenge is shouted.

Cause for the most part the only challenges I see are from guys who know they have an advantage, or they won't run there mouth.  You don't see skyrock, chi, or any of the other guys that use the 200 channel alot challenging SHawk to the DA.

JMFJ

I was laughing so hard trying to reply to this that I accidentally hit submit with out typing at all.  I have been to DA with SHawk twice.  First when I was a newbie 4 months experience and we fought ponies and he handed arse to me.  Second, we fought Dora's some time last year and he augered in an on the water slow rolling scissors fight!  Shawk is a good fellow and not scared to go DA but he plays this game and enjoys being in the top rank spot.  So he does what that takes.  I played that way for first year and eventually got ranked in top 5 overall.  SHawk came over range and said good job 031598, you have to be very dweeby to get in top5.  So he is able to laugh at it all.  
     As far as me asking folks to go to DA, I haven't  and never will pass   challenge and invite many per week to go DA.  There are people that kik me arse in DA but the only way to learn is to fight the best.   I have learned that once you reach a certain level of skills, anyone can beat anyone on a given merge.  Also, once you reach certain level of flyin skills, then gunnery becomes more important.  
      You don't know how I fly from MA because I usually am looking for 1 vs 2's or 1vs3's etc.  As many times you hear me say twit when I die, there are just as many times that I kill 2 of the three and some I last one flying in a 1 vs 2 or 3.  
SHawk DA now!  JMJF training arena is the one below combat theatre, you should go there!
I openely challenge all who read this post to the DA for a good killin!
Especially Morpheewww, wetspat, SHank, Leviaturd, Shine, YANCCA,  Wodky, Deadlaos, Kacrya, Snipper67, Spang, ManePMS, LiteBlue, Balsoid, 1soslow, Jish438, flybox, badbox, GooseCRY,  skychump, Nook33, Pitwerp0, THC, Willbuzzzzz, and WMLoot.

[SkyChimp]

Originally posted by SkyRock
I was laughing so hard trying to reply to this that I accidentally hit submit with out typing at all.  I have been to DA with SHawk twice.  First when I was a newbie 4 months experience and we fought ponies and he handed arse to me.  Second, we fought Dora's some time last year and he augered in an on the water slow rolling scissors fight!  Shawk is a good fellow and not scared to go DA but he plays this game and enjoys being in the top rank spot.  So he does what that takes.  I played that way for first year and eventually got ranked in top 5 overall.  SHawk came over range and said good job 031598, you have to be very dweeby to get in top5.  So he is able to laugh at it all.  
     As far as me asking folks to go to DA, I haven't  and never will pass   challenge and invite many per week to go DA.  There are people that kik me arse in DA but the only way to learn is to fight the best.   I have learned that once you reach a certain level of skills, anyone can beat anyone on a given merge.  Also, once you reach certain level of flyin skills, then gunnery becomes more important.  
      You don't know how I fly from MA because I usually am looking for 1 vs 2's or 1vs3's etc.  As many times you hear me say twit when I die, there are just as many times that I kill 2 of the three and some I last one flying in a 1 vs 2 or 3.  
SHawk DA now!  JMJF training arena is the one below combat theatre, you should go there!
I openely challenge all who read this post to the DA for a good killin!
Especially Morpheewww, wetspat, SHank, Leviaturd, Shine, YANCCA,  Wodky, Deadlaos, Kacrya, Snipper67, Spang, ManePMS, LiteBlue, Balsoid, 1soslow, Jish438, flybox, badbox, GooseCRY,  skychump, Nook33, Pitwerp0, THC, Willbuzzzzz, and WMLoot.

OOOOOHHH u fuged up now lets go!:lol

[mechanic]

one thing i would say is that a DA fight is at most 60-70% merge, and there are few ways of turning back a fight. but then i have only about 2000 DA fights to speak for experience about. just a random geuss though speaking from the eyes of only one player.

[x0847Marine]

All this time I thought it was the Dating Arena.

Another man, stick in hand, wants to meet, alone... away from the 'others', why?, to blow a digital load in my eye for which I call him a HO?

This after said man uses the power of his mighty stick seeking another mans 6... ready, aim, twist it, jerk it, stroke it... just a bit more, not yet,........POW!! 1 man dumps a load in anothers tail.

The Romans would love the DA, speaking of which the DA should have a "Bath haus" rather than an o'club.

[mars01]

LOL All you guys that say, "all the DA is about, is the merge." have not spent enough time with quality opponents in the DA.  Sure if you have some noob or you are the noob then yes the merge is about as far as it gets.

I once watched Nomak and Edbert go at it in the DA and it went way past the merge.  These two guys would go on for 3 or 4 mins fighting.  You will never get that in the MA because the lamer will run or some lamer will cherry pic one of you.

I will challenge and accept anyone who wants to go to the DA, because I am not afraid of getting schooled or do the schooling.  The bottome line is having fun and maybe learning something new or teaching some one else a little something.  

All you guys that need to hide in the MA are shurly never going to go to the DA nor would you accept it as a great place to learn something.  But then again thats why you have your perches too.

All you guys that turn down a Challenge to DA are just skeered of getting shot down in a real fight and what that would do to your fragile egos.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by mars01

I once watched Nomak and Edbert go at it in the DA and it went way past the merge.  These two guys would go on for 3 or 4 mins fighting.  You will never get that in the MA because the lamer will run or some lamer will cherry pic one of you.

 

Wow! A four minute duel from 5k? Were they both blind drunk at the time? I've duelled perhaps 1,500 times counting ladder competitions back in AW (I used to foolishly accept disgruntled victims DA challenges until I ended up spending 90% of my flying time in the DA with cry-babies). I think my longest recorded duel was 43 seconds after the merge and it was only that long because the guy tried to run?!?! I'm not sure if I want to see a 4 minute duel, would be like getting a 12 hour root canal.
If your duels take over 1 minute on average you and/or your opponent need some serious, hardcore work on your gunnery.

Zazen

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Zazen13
If your duels take over 1 minute on average you and/or your opponent need some serious work on your gunnery.

That's not really true.  Long average fights often mean well-matched opponents.  NathBDP and I easily duel for minutes on end, and I think most would agree that gunnery is not one of our weaknesses.  Now, fights between well-matched newbies or well-matched veterans can take a long time; the key is parity.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
That's not really true.  Long average fights often mean well-matched opponents.  NathBDP and I easily duel for minutes on end, and I think most would agree that gunnery is not one of our weaknesses.  Now, fights between well-matched newbies or well-matched veterans can take a long time; the key is parity.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

I'd love to see a film of you and Nath, I've never even seen a filmed duel that lasted more than 2 minutes after the merge. Often in the heat of the battle what seems like minutes is actually only 30 seconds, adrenalin dilates the perception of time by your brain, this enhances reaction times in times of crisis.

Zazen

[SkyChimp]

Originally posted by Zazen13
I'd love to see a film of you and Nath, I've never even seen a filmed duel that lasted more than 2 minutes after the merge. Often in the heat of the battle what seems like minutes is actually only 30 seconds, adrenalin dilates the perception of time by your brain, this enhances reaction times in times of crisis.

Zazen

i have a 5 min fight with me as p51d and dano dano as spit16