It's official...

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I guess the 'greatly superior 109G' part that ticks off poor Nashwan comes from the simple fact that even the possibly worst variant of the 109F/G was at 30-70 kph faster than the Spitfire V at altitude or even more at the really high altitudes, which let's face it was the mainstay of the RAF Spitfire squadrons,the MkIX being just as 'common' as the Me 262 until mid-1944.

They must have felt they're chasing jets anywhere over the MkVs modest critical altitude. There was no 'fight', either the 109 choose to engage the Spit or it didn't. Hell even that poor G-6 cruised as fast as the MkV's all-out.

Yeah we all know about the technically inferior, slower Spit.
Still funny how an earlier, more technically inferior Spit somehow beeatch slapped the LW in 1940, a beeatch slapping the LW never recovered from.

Sorry the rest of you guys who were keeping the thread civil, but Kurfy, well you know him.

I now return you to the civil discussion...

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I guess the 'greatly superior 109G' part that ticks off poor Nashwan comes from the simple fact that even the possibly worst variant of the 109F/G was at 30-70 kph faster than the Spitfire V at altitude or even more at the really high altitudes, which let's face it was the mainstay of the RAF Spitfire squadrons,the MkIX being just as 'common' as the Me 262 until mid-1944.

They must have felt they're chasing jets anywhere over the MkVs modest critical altitude. There was no 'fight', either the 109 choose to engage the Spit or it didn't. Hell even that poor G-6 cruised as fast as the MkV's all-out.

LOL you never quit do ya.  Every time I think you are going to be a rational part of the conversation you make some statement again taking a shot at someone or over generalize.  We realize the 109 won the war.  Get over it

I'd love to give ya the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard

[Kurfürst]

Yep, I never do. It's actually quite a fun to lay back and watch what a little teasing can do. Killer bees are nuthin compared to spitdweebs. Light some incense on your Spit shrine for me as well, to please the gods you know.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Kurfürst
I guess the 'greatly superior 109G' part that ticks off poor Nashwan comes from the simple fact that even the possibly worst variant of the 109F/G was at 30-70 kph faster than the Spitfire V at altitude or even more at the really high altitudes, which let's face it was the mainstay of the RAF Spitfire squadrons,the MkIX being just as 'common' as the Me 262 until mid-1944.

They must have felt they're chasing jets anywhere over the MkVs modest critical altitude. There was no 'fight', either the 109 choose to engage the Spit or it didn't. Hell even that poor G-6 cruised as fast as the MkV's all-out.

I am puzzled as to why you think the RAF stationed it's Spit IXs in Scotland or some other place away from the war and used the Mk Vs exclusively until they had a brainstorm in mid-1944 to actually use all of these Mk IXs they'd been wasting money on.

Odd, don't you think?

Ah well, I guess those Brits are just comical idiots who couldn't think their way out of a wet paperbag.

[Kurfürst]

You say there were only 10 Squadrons of SpitIX fighting the Luftwaffe, while all the rest 35-odd Spit V squadrons were on permanent holiday in Scotland? That's quite a 'rest and refit'.

Have you considered the possibility there were not enough MkIX around until 1944 to replace the MkVs...? Not many IX were produced in 1942 or 1943.

[Karnak]

I would say that it was a mix, with the Mk IX's being tasked with the activities more likely to involve air-to-air combat.  Both would have seen air-to-air combat of course, with the Mk V's coming off for the worse.

I am also skeptical that there were only 10 squadrons on Mk IXs by the end of 1943.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Karnak
I would say that it was a mix, with the Mk IX's being tasked with the activities more likely to involve air-to-air combat.

I am also skeptical that there were only 10 squadrons on Mk IXs by the end of 1943.

Don't waste your time Karnak.  We've been down this road before with IXs on Ops.

I count 56 squadrons that began operating IXs during 42-43.  Not counting those who started in 44.  Of course there were never enough IXs which is why they sent over 1000 to Russia under lend-lease.

Same old same old.

[Crumpp]

EN830 did not have clipped wings.

Then in that case we are still left with conclusion of the full wing spitfire being greatly inferior.

That section is written poorly in Spit the Hist. There is no transition from mentioning the clipping of the one Spit Vb to talking about the captured Vb

He does jump around a bit.  I can't tell from Kurfurst photograph if the wings are clipped or not.  

Now I am even more interested in seeing those reports from the PRO.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Then in that case we are still left with conclusion of the full wing spitfire being greatly inferior.

 

He does jump around a bit.  I can't tell from Kurfurst photograph if the wings are clipped or not.  

Now I am even more interested in seeing those reports from the PRO.

All the best,

Crumpp

I don't think anyone would argue that the Spit FVb was inferior to the 109G.  I don't think that included turning circle, but as we've discussed before that was much more defensive then offensive and a cause of frustration to RAF pilots trying to fight the 190s in particular in the Vb.  Making tight turns just to survive is just that.  It's not attacking it's surviving.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Crumpp
Then in that case we are still left with conclusion of the full wing spitfire being greatly inferior.

 

He does jump around a bit.  I can't tell from Kurfurst photograph if the wings are clipped or not.  

Now I am even more interested in seeing those reports from the PRO.

All the best,

Crumpp

Pic is a full span Spit, clipping would be visible just outboard of the aileron, theres too much outboard for it to be clipped.

[Guppy35]

Just because there were clearly so few clipped.  Vs, VIIIs, IXs, XIIs, XIVs, XVI

[Karnak]

Dan,

Yes, 56 squadrons sounds a lot more likely.  Kurfurst seems to take 1942 numbers and extend them through into 1944 unchanged.

I wish he wouldn't do that.  It feels like he'll have settled down and become reasonable, posting good data and then out of the blue he goes and starts either A) trolling or B) posting obviously false information in pursuit of distorting the historical picture.

The only reason I have not put him on ignore is because he does have good information about the Bf109 and as long as the subject pertains exclusively to the Bf109, without any comparisons, he provides a lot of good data.

[Crumpp]

Just because there were clearly so few clipped. Vs, VIIIs, IXs, XIIs, XIVs, XVI

In comparison to normal wing variants, it is not very common.  

I don't see anywhere the conclusions of the RAE regarding clipped wing performance are invalid.  It clearly has engineering trade offs but offers advantages against the FW-190, the most common Luftwaffe fighter for much of the time on the Kanalfront, than the normal wing variants.  For rolling performance the surveyed Spitfire pilots comments are valid.

All the best,

Crumpp

[zorstorer]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Just because there were clearly so few clipped.  Vs, VIIIs, IXs, XIIs, XIVs, XVI

PHOTOSHOP!!!!!





















Actually would the RAF have put down its future plans for clipping spits or was it done at the squadron level?  Just thinking they might have been planning more clipping as the war went along and the war moved lower?

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by Crumpp
In comparison to normal wing variants, it is not very common.  

I don't see anywhere the conclusions of the RAE regarding clipped wing performance are invalid.  It clearly has engineering trade offs but offers advantages against the FW-190, the most common Luftwaffe fighter for much of the time on the Kanalfront, than the normal wing variants.  For rolling performance the surveyed Spitfire pilots comments are valid.

All the best,

Crumpp

It was common for the Spit fighting at low alt.  Did the Spit IXs in 43 have them?  Nope.  Did the LFVcs and XIIs have them.  Yep.  They were down there with the 2 TAF bombers flying escort and fighting at lower alts.

Did the 2 TAF fighter bomber Spits have them in late 44-45?  Lots did, lots didn't.  Again, purely for the down low work.

The Spit Vbs in the MTO had wings clipped at squadron levels often.  Again.  The war they were fighting was down low.

Could wing tips be changed back if the mission called for it?  Absolutely.  Did it happen?  Absolutely.  You can often find photos of Spits from the same squadron flying alongside each other with one clipped and one not.

Was it a rare occurance?  Nope.  Was it standard practice in 40-42?  Nope.  Did it start to happen in 43 as the air war moved lower both in the ETO and MTO?  Yep.  Did all Spitfires get clipped?  Nope.

An example from the MTO.  Spitfire Society founder David Green in his 73 Squadron Spitfire LFIX with clipped wings, being followed out by two standard wing Spitfire IXs.  Note these have Universal wings and the three hardpoints.