Author Topic: Observations on new 109s (Read 3632 times)

wetrat · « **Reply #45 on:** December 19, 2005, 01:18:09 PM »

Yup, the 109's suck. My main ride is the K4, and yes, it sucks - especially when just about every target is a sissyfire or LA. That being said, the K4 sucks less than the pilots of the sissyfires and LA's, so the K4 is perfectly viable in the MA --- if you're a good stick, and (most importantly) a good shot. You can still fight aggressively in a K4 and live in the MA, you just have to pay attention, pick your spots, and be good at it. I'm 309:60 in the K4 so far this camp, and I'm anything but timid and never vulch. Go figure.

Zazen13 · « **Reply #46 on:** December 19, 2005, 01:20:16 PM »

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Originally posted by wetrat
Yup, the 109's suck. My main ride is the K4, and yes, it sucks - especially when just about every target is a sissyfire or LA. That being said, the K4 sucks less than the pilots of the sissyfires and LA's, so the K4 is perfectly viable in the MA --- if you're a good stick, and (most importantly) a good shot. You can still fight aggressively in a K4 and live in the MA, you just have to pay attention, pick your spots, and be good at it. I'm 309:60 in the K4 so far this camp, and I'm anything but timid and never vulch. Go figure.

Very nice! Yes, I was watching you yesterday, never saw you above 10k and you were usually on the deck, you were a lil' whirling dervish.

Zazen

gatt · « **Reply #47 on:** December 19, 2005, 02:50:10 PM »

Wetrat

nice post and good stats as well, WTG!

AKFokerFoder+ · « **Reply #48 on:** December 19, 2005, 02:55:27 PM »

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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The TOD will be a major success because HT has drones to fly the LW iron.

That's what players want anyway, a seal clubbing.

OTOH if the game was early war and the LW as good as it was in reality there'd be no problem. The late war setup of AH portrays a situation where the Luftwaffe had already suffered for years from lack of resources being the losing side of the war.

Well, and the russian planes are obviously overmodeled. That's natural if they believed the 'official' russian test results. When you see reports that indicate good land manouverability to a battleship, you might want to check your sources.

The Soviets were infamous for faking reports just to please the party and keep from being sent to gulags. The soviet pilots reported so many kills that the entire FAF should have been shot down twice during the wars.

Well, if TOD has drones made of the existing LW iron, then there may be a lot of interest by some. The LW drones should be easy pickings.

But shooting drones is for box games. Most people in the Main Arcade don't fly like AI drones, nor do they fly as well as AI drones.

The big advantage to AI drones is gunnery practice, which is sorely needed in this game. The existing drones are not much better than nothing. Better yes, just not much better.

mauser · « **Reply #49 on:** December 19, 2005, 03:21:47 PM »

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Originally posted by Bodhi
If they introduced a true torque roll in here, 99% of you will die fairly frequently as you induce a spin at low alt.

I know this isn't directly related to what Bodhi said, but I remember early in the AH beta how difficult it was to take off. It was a real challenge NOT to ground loop the 109G-10 on takeoff, but I just kept going at it until it wasn't so bad. That was changed after a little while, I believe it was a change in the gear strut stiffness or damping but I'm not sure.

About keeping the ball centered in the C.205 - yes, it's like playing "pong" on your instrument panel. The 109 seems to be almost as bad for me, I'm way too used to flying the 190 which doesn't require as much rudder attention until the wings try to go the other way. In any case, it's especially hard to do really low speed moves for a neophyte like me when I'm busy trying to roll the throttle smoothly back and forth and fight the ball. Only way I can "fly" without feeling like I'm constantly fighting the plane is if I play conservative.

wetrat · « **Reply #50 on:** December 19, 2005, 03:40:19 PM »

I read through some of the posts just now (didn't before), and wtf are you people talking about.. K4 is worse than the G10? Like hell it is... it's the exact same as the G10. You can't take 20mm's or gondies in a K4... SO WHAT? What the hell were you doing taking 20mm's or gondolas in a G10 anyway?! 1x20mm is just retarded in a G10 (it was always a snapshot ride... have fun snapshotting with a single LW 20), and slinging gondies on a plane that already handles like a bus is just idiotic. Neuters climb rate/acceleration... the only things the G10 did well!

The K4 sucks, the G10 sucked. Visibility in the K4 sucks, visibility in the G10 sucked. If you suck you can't hit a damn thing with 30's in a K4, if you suck you couldn't hit a damn thing with 30's in a G10. Big changes, eh?! Personally, I don't find the visibility in the K4 all that bad (set your views, people). Sure, you can't see a damn thing below the nose, but I almost never shoot at stuff below the nose anyhow. Lead turns, people - put the plane in that little triangle window up front (roll a 109, you'll see the ones I mean) and blow em up when they cross into your sights. Easy.

I've been considering posting some 30mm gunnery films in the Training forums, and I think I'll actually do it now. It isn't all that hard once you get the hang of it, but you can't have the same approach as you would with 50cals or hispanos. There's a whole different set of rules.

Wilbus · « **Reply #51 on:** December 19, 2005, 04:03:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Bodhi If they introduced a true torque roll in here, 99% of you will die fairly frequently as you induce a spin at low alt.

Don't agree nor do I think you are right.

AKFokerFoder+ · « **Reply #52 on:** December 19, 2005, 04:35:09 PM »

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Originally posted by wetrat
I read through some of the posts just now (didn't before), and wtf are you people talking about.. K4 is worse than the G10? Like hell it is... it's the exact same as the G10. You can't take 20mm's or gondies in a K4... SO WHAT? What the hell were you doing taking 20mm's or gondolas in a G10 anyway?!

I've been considering posting some 30mm gunnery films in the Training forums, and I think I'll actually do it now. It isn't all that hard once you get the hang of it, but you can't have the same approach as you would with 50cals or hispanos. There's a whole different set of rules.

The new 109s compress easier than the 2.5 version 109s. That is a big factor. I just can't believe how stiff they get at low speeds and how they lock up. I loved the old 109F4, but now the thing is a pig, with or without gondies. I keep compressing in it. Damn ground kills you more than bogeys. And you dive on a bogey and the thing gets so stiff, you can't pull off your shot. By 350 mph, it is getting stiff, by 400mph, forget it.

As far as gondolas go, the firepower of the G10 with gondies smacked up a buff really fast. And made for nasty snap shots, if the 30's didn't get the bogey the 20s tore chunks off him.

G10 was never a turn fighter, but it could get you out of trouble until the Cavalry arrived.

Gondies are like putting the extra 30mms on the 190A8. Why not? The thing turns like a bus anyways, and the A8 is too slow to run if you let it get slow. So you just use that massive firepower to blast anything in front of your guns, stay fast, and get out of Dodge.

It is really amazing that the Germans, who could build an operational jet fighter, an operational jet bomber, an operational rocket plane, and operational rockets V1/V2, and deploy these in combat. They could do all that, yet they couldn't build a decent propeller driven fighter.

In spite of not being able to build a decent propeller driven fighter aircraft, their pilots scored impressive kill streaks with those planes.

We should be greatful that the Germans couldn't engineer aircraft. If they could have produced an airplane that could compete with a Spit or and LA, they may have won the war.

The real solution, is to get off the BBS and spend time learning a Spit16 or and LA7. Those things keep getting better and better.

I heard that in version 2.9 we are going to get a Spit 11 that will fly faster than a Tempest, and outturn a Zeke. And it won't be perked either !!:rofl

gatt · « **Reply #53 on:** December 19, 2005, 05:40:17 PM »

I dont know what game you played Wetrat, but the 1x20mm G-10, despite unstable, was an excellent e-fighter and the 3x20mm was an excellent buff hunter and hit&climb fighter. I can speak only for me and some of my squaddies but numbers are (better: were) there. Since the last patch, 109s are not only the usual unstable pigs (compared to allied fighters), but they have lost their teeth as well.

wetrat · « **Reply #54 on:** December 19, 2005, 06:01:52 PM »

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Originally posted by gatt
Since the last patch, 109s are not only the usual unstable pigs (compared to allied fighters), but they have lost their teeth as well.

Wrong. I'm slaughtering baby seals just the same as always. Unless buff hunting (ZzZzZzZzZZ no thanks), the G10/K4 has ALWAYS been most effective with 30mm in the hands of a decent stick with good gunnery. Think you'd catch Fester/Nath/Stang/me/ with 20mm's in a G10 too often back in the day? I highly doubt it. The G10/K4 has only "lost its teeth" if you never learned how to fly it properly in the first place. End of story.

Perhaps the 109F/G2/G6(g6 always sucked...) "lost their teeth," but I haven't said anything about them up until now. For a while in AH1 the G2 was my #1 ride, and it's never been as good in AH2 as it was back then. That didn't change with any patch.

Grits · « **Reply #55 on:** December 19, 2005, 06:40:33 PM »

Wetrat is 100% correct of course. The K-4 is identical to the old G-10 except for the weapons. Performance is identical, its the relative performance of its opponents that have changed. Like he said, the 109's always sucked just as much as they do now, what has changed is not them, before you were fighting Spit V's and now you are fighting Spit VIII/XVI's. The performance gap to the 109's opponents has closed (dissapeared) and therefore its relative performance HAS changed even though its absolute performance numbers have not.

killnu · « **Reply #56 on:** December 19, 2005, 06:51:35 PM »

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I've been considering posting some 30mm gunnery films in the Training forums,

That would be great. Ive asked somebody...in this thread even...to send me a film of that, yet to get it

dang you Wil, wont share the secret with me.

Krusty · « **Reply #57 on:** December 19, 2005, 07:00:33 PM »

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Originally posted by Grits
Wetrat is 100% correct of course. The K-4 is identical to the old G-10 except for the weapons.

I must disagree Grits... Again the issue goes back to "the numbers line up but everything ELSE is hosed".

A K4 can't fly in anything other than level flight without popping slats. It can't even loop properly anymore (HIGHLY unstable when trying to). Compared to the G10 we used to have, DESPITE having the same top speed and climb rate, the REST of the flight envelope got the shaft. It cannot flat turn anymore. It cannot dive anymore (compresses far too easily, as was mentioned). It cannot ROLL anymore (you even found some of the 109s roll as much as a second slower than they used to).

All in all the flight model for all 109s has turned to mush. Unstable mush, but mush nonetheless. I've sworn off 109s for the time being.

Stang · « **Reply #58 on:** December 19, 2005, 07:30:07 PM »

K4 feels exactly the same to me as the G10 did. You could see a little better out of the G10 though, but I've gotten used to the new K4's cockpit, so it's irrelevant now.

wrag · « **Reply #59 on:** December 19, 2005, 07:45:50 PM »

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Originally posted by wetrat
Wrong. I'm slaughtering baby seals just the same as always. Unless buff hunting (ZzZzZzZzZZ no thanks), the G10/K4 has ALWAYS been most effective with 30mm in the hands of a decent stick with good gunnery. Think you'd catch Fester/Nath/Stang/me/ with 20mm's in a G10 too often back in the day? I highly doubt it. The G10/K4 has only "lost its teeth" if you never learned how to fly it properly in the first place. End of story.

Perhaps the 109F/G2/G6(g6 always sucked...) "lost their teeth," but I haven't said anything about them up until now. For a while in AH1 the G2 was my #1 ride, and it's never been as good in AH2 as it was back then. That didn't change with any patch.

Hmmmm so you are a 733t stick ?