Observations on new 109s

[Hajo]

Decided to fly the 109s extensively see if anything has changed besides the obvious ammo loadout etc.  These are my opinions and not necesaarily the opinions of our sponsors

G14....imho on par or just a smidge better then the past G6.  Has a very small performance envelope as does the K4.  By envelope I mean at what speed the plane operates the best.  250 - 210 mph might as well fly a garbage truck.  Anything over 400 starts to stiffen and actually compress as did some 109s before.  But the "envelope seems to have narrowed.

K4 is worthless unless you want to fly around at exactly 400mph and take lead shots or HO's.  Maneuverability is horrible.  The climb rate seems to be slower the the old G10 which imho appears to have been a better fighter then either the K4 or the G14.

Flaps......still haven't been attended to.  When some of the models have leading edge slats to increase maneuverability why do they just about stall in a turn at 210 mph?  For an aircraft that shot down thousands of Allied Aircraft during WWII and was manufactured after WWII for some years by Spain because of it's success as a fighter.  Why is it so bad here?

Considering ammo lethality, handling at low speeds or speeds slightly in excess of 400mph the way it flies here it has to be near the bottom of the pack on aircraft chosen to fly.  In here just about everything handles much better in most areas then the 190s or 109s in this game.  If the FM is accurate in Aces High then how the hell did the LW Pilots have the victories they totaled during WWII?  We've got to get the Flaps situation rectified to make these planes viable aircraft in Aces High.  Be interested to see the sorties that 109s and 190s have in comparison to other aircraft in Aces High.

Again this is just my opinion....something seems different since the last version.  Of course there is a good chance I may be wrong.  But that would be highly unusuall

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Hajo
Decided to fly the 109s extensively see if anything has changed besides the obvious ammo loadout etc.  These are my opinions and not necesaarily the opinions of our sponsors

G14....imho on par or just a smidge better then the past G6.  Has a very small performance envelope as does the K4.  By envelope I mean at what speed the plane operates the best.  250 - 210 mph might as well fly a garbage truck.  Anything over 400 starts to stiffen and actually compress as did some 109s before.  But the "envelope seems to have narrowed.

K4 is worthless unless you want to fly around at exactly 400mph and take lead shots or HO's.  Maneuverability is horrible.  The climb rate seems to be slower the the old G10 which imho appears to have been a better fighter then either the K4 or the G14.

Flaps......still haven't been attended to.  When some of the models have leading edge slats to increase maneuverability why do they just about stall in a turn at 210 mph?  For an aircraft that shot down thousands of Allied Aircraft during WWII and was manufactured after WWII for some years by Spain because of it's success as a fighter.  Why is it so bad here?

Considering ammo lethality, handling at low speeds or speeds slightly in excess of 400mph the way it flies here it has to be near the bottom of the pack on aircraft chosen to fly.  In here just about everything handles much better in most areas then the 190s or 109s in this game.  If the FM is accurate in Aces High then how the hell did the LW Pilots have the victories they totaled during WWII?  We've got to get the Flaps situation rectified to make these planes viable aircraft in Aces High.  Be interested to see the sorties that 109s and 190s have in comparison to other aircraft in Aces High.

Again this is just my opinion....something seems different since the last version.  Of course there is a good chance I may be wrong.  But that would be highly unusuall

I'm not arguing with you. Having never flown a real Fw190 or 109 I can't say but for certain they are inferior rides in almost every respect when compared  to the majority of the planeset in AH. As far as LW pilots kills go though there's a few things to consider. LW pilots flew until they died, they were not rotated out of action, something like 90% of all air to air kills were tallied by 10% of the pilots on all sides. On the western front ALOT of kills, especially prior to long-ranged bomber escort fighters arrived were unescorted bombers. In Poland and the Eastern front, the majority of LW kills were outnumbered 'green' pilots often in obsolete aircraft, including bi-planes, until near the end of the war. So, while I am not belittling the tallies of the LW aces, they had a massive experience, numerical and equipment advantage on their opponents during most phases in all theaters except perhaps during the Battle of Britain and after the occupation of Italy just prior to the Normandy invasion when the Germans irrevocably lost air supremacy over Western Europe for the remainder of the war.

Zazen

[Hajo]

Zazen I'm comparing 109s within the game at different times.

I'm not talking about individual kills by Pilots per se but about total kills by 109s and 190s.  The aircraft specifically.  The performance during WWII of these aircraft were very good judging by the total number of kills each fighter attained during the War.  The only downside that was evident to LW fighters in general was their short range.  As far as performance on the Eastern and Western Fronts as Fighters they were a very worthy adversary.  What I am suggesting is that apparently they were a very good fighter during the War, and seems that in Aces High I think most would agree that here they are lackluster at best.  Some perform very well in specific areas but as a whole in Aces High they seem to be good say in climb....but have poor rate of turn and poor manueverability at low or high speeds.  Guess what I am saying LW fighters out of 3 catagories can only score high in 1, instead of say two of the three.  Kick in armament and flap usage , that pretty well places them in the bottom say 5 to 10% of efficient fighters in Aces High MA.

Again...just my opinion.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Hajo
Zazen I'm comparing 109s within the game at different times.

I'm not talking about individual kills by Pilots per se but about total kills by 109s and 190s.  The aircraft specifically.  The performance during WWII of these aircraft were very good judging by the total number of kills each fighter attained during the War.  The only downside that was evident to LW fighters in general was their short range.  As far as performance on the Eastern and Western Fronts as Fighters they were a very worthy adversary.  What I am suggesting is that apparently they were a very good fighter during the War, and seems that in Aces High I think most would agree that here they are lackluster at best.  Some perform very well in specific areas but as a whole in Aces High they seem to be good say in climb....but have poor rate of turn and poor manueverability at low or high speeds.  Guess what I am saying LW fighters out of 3 catagories can only score high in 1, instead of say two of the three.  Kick in armament and flap usage , that pretty well places them in the bottom say 5 to 10% of efficient fighters in Aces High MA.

Again...just my opinion.

Yes, I see. But, I think you may be overestimating how good they really were in WWII. Kill statistics can be misleading as a good proportion were un-escorted bombers, bi-planes and grossly obsolete aircraft with complete rookie pilots. Both the 109 and the 190 are essentially 1939'ish designs, other than the 262 those two types of aircraft were the only true fighters the LW had. The allies on the other hand evolved many, many  effective types of fighters more or less canning their circa 1939 aircraft like the Hurricane and the P40 as soon as they had developed better engines and airframe designs to accomodate them. It was very widely agreed even by the Luftwaffe that by late 1943 and certainly by 1944 that the LW's fighter designs were not competitive with contemporary allied aircraft. The fact that the LW was fighting a defensive airiel campaign by that point, allowing it to preserve veteran pilots bailing/ditching over friendly territory allowed them to maintain a persistant if waning defense.

Zazen

[Raptor]

I'm not saying they are modeled accurately or totally screwed up, but I don't think they are as bad as people say they are. I mainly fly P38L, but I have had some good fights in a 109. 109s are fun to mess around in, I was in a fight 2 seafires vs me in a 109G14 on the deck and I was able to get the better of them. Don't fly 109's horizontally, use that powerful engines (and flaps are useful whether you say they are or not). Use the 30mm option, less rounds but lighter than the 20mm loadout and 1 shot will down any fighter. I have convergence set to 600 but will not shoot until within 400. I had to land due to fuel before running out of ammo.

[RedDg]

Originally posted by Hajo
Decided to fly the 109s extensively

Who are you and what did you do with Hajo.

[AKFokerFoder+]

I was flying the 109F4 and G6 a lot in version 2.5, I am now looking for a new ride.  I like the Spit16, and my old buddy the 190A8.  The A8 is a piece of kee rap, but it dives nice, shoots welll, and anything if front of your guns dies

The front views of the are porked in Ver 2.6; get used to it.

The 109F4 had it’s teeth pulled out; get used to it.

The G6 lost it’s punch; get used to it.

The G10 is dead; get used to it.

The 14 is the old G6, or so we are told, the old G6 was a pretty nice ride, the new 14 compresses just to spite you.  And did I mention that the front view sucks?

The K4 has just the few rounds of 30mm; doesn’t climb like a G10, compresses just to spite you.

The compression on the new 109 is much worse than the old 109s, it starts sooner, and locks you up into a tough to get out of dive,  I auger too much in it.

As for flaps in the Luft Wobble rides, this has been hashed over too many times.  In spite of strong evidence that the flaps could deploy at higher speed in the 109s and 190’s it ain’t a gonna change; get used to it.

HT’s idea of realistic is that we put a fat bunch of bars in front of you that you can’t look around.  In real life, a pilot can make small subconscious movements of his head to look around the struts in the cockpit.  Exactly like you look around the struts in you car without really thinking about it.  This has normally been modeled in flight sims by making the bars a bit smaller than it real life. A virtual world way of trying to make the experience more like what you would have in real life.  In AH2 it is like the pilots head is rooted in cement in each view, and can only be moved slowly with the arrow or page up/down keys.

The 190s in this game are a joke.  The Dora had a massively powerful engine with 2,240 hp, and a normal fully loaded weight of 9414 lbs.  The LA7 had a 1,840 hp engine at 7308 lbs.  
 
This gives the Dora a Hp/Wt ratio of about 95% of the Lavotchkin 7. Yet look at the acceleration difference. Both planes had almost identical wing areas, 18.3 sq meters for the Dora, and 17.5 sq meters for the LA7.  The LA7 had significantly better wing loading, of 194 kg/sq meter, than the Dora’s 258 kg/sq meter.  I could be wrong here, but with all that wing and drag, the LA7 shouldn’t accelerate much faster than a Dora, given the almost identical hp/wt ratio.  The LA will of course out turn the Dora quite easily given the wing loading.

Yet we see the following acceleration rates from the Dora and the LA7 Netaces Accleration Comparison Page That the Dora’s acceleration is abysmal compared to the LA7.

The LW rides in LA's High suck; get used to it, because it won't change. And I predicte will be one of the reasons that TOD will be a big flop.

Take a Spit or a LA7.  Spitfires and LA’s flew close to 40% of the sorties in the Main Arcade  last month.  And there is a reason.

[DREDIOCK]

Speaking from within the game inasmuch as I've flown 109s almost exclusively for the last year
they seem to be dummied down a bit over at least the last release.

109F for sure doesnt handle as well as it used to  particularly when low and slow which has led me to fly the other varients more.
None handle quite the way Im used to or would like But at least with the other varients they are a tad faster.

also the 20MM dont seem to be as leathal in the 109f as they are in other models (yes without gondolas)

G14 IMO doesnt deserve the type of ENY it has.
Yes it has those nasty 30 cal but onlyin a very limited amount and the plane it self handles like crap particularly if you get slow

To me it seems to fly more like a 190

IT does however climb well if you have a head of steam up and I've surprised a few people who thought they were going to go veiticle and out climb me. But you need that head of steam first.

Flies TERRIBLE slow

By contrast and I havent flown the 190s as much. Some of them seem to turn bit better then I remember. The D9 in particular turns ALOT better now then I remember it and seems to fly fairly well even when low & slow.
While the A5 doesnt seem to turn as well as I remember.

[Charge]

"And I predicte will be one of the reasons that TOD will be a big flop."

I hope you are wrong -and fear that you are right...

-C+

[Kweassa]

Im not sure....

 I'm not a good pilot but I've always flown 109s for years. It's hard to fight with 109s but then again it was always difficult. I've inquired about the slats when I tested the turn radiuses for the fighter planes and the answer I got was that the 109 is already heavily influenced by the slats. The turn radius I've tested out myself - and found not much difference from the previous versions.

 The only 'problem' I see with 109s is that some people are claiming the speeds for some of them are off, and the flap deployment speeds are wrong. Other than that I can't see or feel what's so different about them in version 2.06.

 ...

 They were always garbage trucks, always stiffens up at hard speeds, always horrible in maneuverability, always stalled/destabilized at the slightest stick pull, always had sucky ammo.... and yes, everything else handles better than 109s and 190s, with even P-47s flying circles around the thing.

 But again, that's how it always was in AH. No change at all IMO.
It doesn't pull turns like Spits, nor can it follow even P-47s in a turn, as a matter of fact. It doesn't have bullshi* Hizookas nor easy-fire 50cals... it can't pop flaps out at 250mph and start outmaneuvering the first merge - which by the way, every US fighter at least more than twice the weight of 109s can pull off in a dime. All it can do is climb and accelerate.

 It was always like that.

[traps]

Originally posted by Kweassa


 It was always like that.

and we liked it!!!!


 I spend most of my time in a k4, it ain't so bad,ask Nath he seems to do well in one

[Hajo]

Kweassa....Shamus and I both have been here for a long time.  And quite frankly flew the 109 a lot.  Yup....that's the way it is here.  And the flap problem can aleviate that.  Not questioning the way it is here.  Am questioning the records of the 190s and 109s in real life as compared to how it flies in Aces High.  From 1943 onwards the LW usually flew against greater numbers and still managed to do very well.  Seems to me they shot down more then their share considering the numbers the last half of the war.  It won't do that here.  If there is an Axis versus Allied Tod.  LW going to be hard pressed to find Pilots on a regular basis.

Going over records, first hand accounts and gun cam.  I don't think they were as bad in real life as they appear to be here.

Armament.....considered the worst by all accounts by consesus on Posts on these boards.  Still no flap deployment along with the leading edge slats which should give the 109 better low speed handling.  When on runway I hear the slats before take off....and when breaking when landing.  Hear nothing when flying but the stall horn....and one would think that when leading edge slats deployed ones nose would go up even minutely, but should be noticable....I notice nothing?

[AKFokerFoder+]

Originally posted by Hajo
 When on runway I hear the slats before take off....and when breaking when landing.  Hear nothing when flying but the stall horn....and one would think that when leading edge slats deployed ones nose would go up even minutely, but should be noticable....I notice nothing?

Please don't be insulted, but do you have stall limiter on?

If so, turn it off.  The slats come out in the F4 at as high as about 110mph (maybe a bit more) in a hard turn.  And of course you cut throttle in a hard turn, I often turn off engine in the first 180 degrees.  And the + and - keys are very important.  

Not that I think the slats out helps that much in a turn.

[Hajo]

Never have and never will use stall limiter

[Lazerr]

Stall limiter was put in the game strictly for Dlamb's use, nobody else should  have this option enabled.


(WOOOOO, im on my 420th post... )

*Runs the the basement.. err.. greenhouse*