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Author Topic: Intelligent Design out of Pub Schools in PA  (Read 2455 times)

Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #90 on: December 23, 2005, 11:00:41 PM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So you are saying that an intellegent designer never created anything?

Of course ID = Creationism.


That is incorrect.

Creationism is a belief that God created life and the universe.

The ID crowd says someone created life but we're not sure who.

Personaly I disagree with the current ID movement.
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Offline Booz

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« Reply #91 on: December 23, 2005, 11:06:48 PM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
The ID crowd says someone created life but we're not sure who.
 


  Oh they ALL say who, not a damn one of them can keep their mouth shut.
 Behe, Demski, name an ID handsomehunk and I'll give you a direct quote where he sez "IT'S GAWD!!"
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 11:31:31 PM by Booz »
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Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #92 on: December 23, 2005, 11:38:35 PM »
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Originally posted by Booz
Oh they ALL say who, not a damn one of them can keep their mouth shut.
 Behe, Demski, name an ID handsomehunk and I'll give you a direct quote where he sez "IT'S GAWD!!"


That may very well be.  Like I said, it doesn't concern me so I don't keep up with it.

But it still stands that any theory that beats around the bush and doesn't come right out and say in their mission statement that God created life, can't accurately be called creationism.
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Offline Booz

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« Reply #93 on: December 23, 2005, 11:48:04 PM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
That may very well be.  Like I said, it doesn't concern me so I don't keep up with it.

But it still stands that any theory that beats around the bush and doesn't come right out and say in their mission statement that God created life, can't accurately be called creationism.


 Or a Theory, or sensical, or anything much more than a lie. ID had it's chance to present all it's evidence to the world in Dover...ID beats around the bush and says nothing
« Last Edit: December 23, 2005, 11:50:43 PM by Booz »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #94 on: December 23, 2005, 11:50:47 PM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
That is incorrect.

Creationism is a belief that God created life and the universe.

The ID crowd says someone created life but we're not sure who.

Personaly I disagree with the current ID movement.


When you say "Someone broke into my house." you assume the existence of someone, otherwise what you said would be idiotic.

When you say "Some intelligent designer intelligently designed this." you assume the existence of ....  an intelligent designer.  You assume that the intelligent designer created whatever you are talking about.

If the ID crowd says someone created life but we're not sure who, they are still assuming the existance of someone with supernatural powers who created that life.  That is creationism.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #95 on: December 23, 2005, 11:59:46 PM »
The funny thing is that that creationism is a fact. Everything was created, right?
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #96 on: December 24, 2005, 12:02:14 AM »
Not necessarily supernaturally however.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #97 on: December 24, 2005, 12:06:12 AM »
Holden, what I find funny is that people rule out an intelligence in favor of a complete random "miracle"
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #98 on: December 24, 2005, 12:13:41 AM »
Nuke, the reason I do not subscribe to the teaching of ID in science class is because science is the technique of understanding nature by experiment and observation.  ID is coming to an impass in that process, saying "I do not understand this and I have no imagination on how I can gather any evidence to further my understanding, so I'll be lazy and just say God did it."

Before Aristotle there were many ways primative peoples explained how the sun seemed to travel overhead daily.  Some explained it by saying God carried the sun to the eastern horizon and made it rise daily.  I am glad the ID'ers did not prevail then.

Even if you believe in God as many scientists do, you should do the painstaking hard work and figure out how he did it.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #99 on: December 24, 2005, 12:24:32 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin

If the ID crowd says someone created life but we're not sure who, they are still assuming the existance of someone with supernatural powers who created that life.  That is creationism.


I'm talking about the title of two separate beliefs.  And they are separate.

You are correct when you say the ID theory requires a creator, but that still doesn't mean you can call the theory creationism because that title was already claimed long long ago.  Sorry, they had to pick another name, which they did.

I realize it would make arguing against both beliefs easier if you could call them the same thing but they are two separate theories.  Calling them the same thing just shows a lack of familiarity.

Once again.  Creationism: God did it.
ID: someone did it.

ID folks can claim they believe in creationism but a pure creationist can not say the same about ID.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2005, 12:28:32 AM by ChickenHawk »
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #100 on: December 24, 2005, 12:30:39 AM »
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
I realize it would make arguing against both beliefs easier if you could call them the same thing but they are two separate theories.


And a wolf is sheeps clothing is no longer a wolf... got it.

parphrasing Galileo, I surrender, you are correct ,"but it is creationism"
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #101 on: December 24, 2005, 12:44:50 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Nuke, the reason I do not subscribe to the teaching of ID in science class is because science is the technique of understanding nature by experiment and observation.  ID is coming to an impass in that process, saying "I do not understand this and I have no imagination on how I can gather any evidence to further my understanding, so I'll be lazy and just say God did it."

Before Aristotle there were many ways primative peoples explained how the sun seemed to travel overhead daily.  Some explained it by saying God carried the sun to the eastern horizon and made it rise daily.  I am glad the ID'ers did not prevail then.

Even if you believe in God as many scientists do, you should do the painstaking hard work and figure out how he did it.


I agree with part of what you have said. I don't think ID is science. I also don't think that science should be teaching anything other than science.

The question of creation of the universe and life is not within the realm of science, yet it is taught as part of science.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #102 on: December 24, 2005, 01:03:49 AM »
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Originally posted by NUKE
The question of creation of the universe and life is not within the realm of science, yet it is taught as part of science.


But the big bang and species evolution are scientific theories.  

The big bang is an extrapolation of Einstein's genius.  The mathematics says that the big bang is the most reasonable endpoint of extrpolation of relativity into the past.  Everything seems to make sense until realtivity and quantum collide.

Evolution makes the most sense given the fossil record.  T-Rex is not in the bible, yet it  is in the rocks. Selective breeding of domesticated animals shows us that changes within species can occur in just a few thousand years and in a petrie dish in a very short time indeed.

These observations of processes and the predictions made by these scientific theories are within the realm of science.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #103 on: December 24, 2005, 01:19:42 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
And a wolf is sheeps clothing is no longer a wolf... got it.

parphrasing Galileo, I surrender, you are correct ,"but it is creationism"


I do agree that the ID folks seem to be a little shady and not completely honest.  That's part of the reason I don't agree with their movement.

And I see that we understand each other perfectly on creationism. :cool:

Well now that you-know-who has joined the thread, I'm gonna bug out.  I wish you luck.  It looks like you may have a long night ahead of you.
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Offline NUKE

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« Reply #104 on: December 24, 2005, 01:33:17 AM »
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
But the big bang and species evolution are scientific theories.  

The big bang is an extrapolation of Einstein's genius.  The mathematics says that the big bang is the most reasonable endpoint of extrpolation of relativity into the past.  Everything seems to make sense until realtivity and quantum collide.

Evolution makes the most sense given the fossil record.  T-Rex is not in the bible, yet it  is in the rocks. Selective breeding of domesticated animals shows us that changes within species can occur in just a few thousand years and in a petrie dish in a very short time indeed.

These observations of processes and the predictions made by these scientific theories are within the realm of science.


I agree, that they are theories. But if you use logic and retain science, the actual origin of matter and life does not reside in the realm of science.

Science is not capable of explaining the origins of matter and/or life.
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