Boycott US Companies that Out-source to India

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Corporate America is selling out American Jobs.

They are literally at war with American Labor.

Guess who pays for this?

Bottom line is NOT profits. it's national survival. Wake up, smell the curry. We're in deep **** and corporate america is digging us in even deeper with BS 'bottom line' platitudes and 'outsourcing'.

Check Northwest Airlines as an example of this blatently criminal corporate behavior. Takes federal dollars. orders airbuses with it. dumps american workforce. executives bail with multi-million dollar salries and parachutes. company declares bankruptcy. Sickening.

Yer a SELLOUT, Rip. A plastic phoney-baloney american, spewing platitudes and BS.. tossing work overseas when we have a massive trade deficit is un-american. Look around you.. think we can keep up selling our workforce short? How long before the economy implodes?

Look at the legacy yer leaving yer kids. look in the mirror. yer a sellout. plain and simple.

enjoy yer stuffed christmas goose, Rip.

[ChickenHawk]

Originally posted by BigGun
The management & board of directors have an obligation to the owners of the company, not an obligation to the employees.

Long gone are the days when you could just go to work for a company & expect to work there for many years.

I understand that this is now the reality that we in the US and western countries now live with.  But I don't see this as a good thing.

The big companies do not give a hoot about their employees or their families anymore.  Oh most will deny this but it's obvious to all.  As a result, the employees no longer have any pride in what they produce and don't feel like they are contributing to their community or country.  We're all working for the investors who are already rich and are getting richer.

[Eagler]

then again...
we are good at cutting our own throats

i read the average salary is over $49,000 in NY
a bus driver now makes over $54k and the ticket taker over 51k.... not to mention they want full bennies if/when they retire at 55 .. LOL

if they could outsource that mess, you bet ur arse the city would do it in a heart beat

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by BigGun
I guess I look at the situation from an investment perspective, since it is what I do. I am repsonsible for earning a return on a significant amount of money.

As an investor, we buy a lot of stock in various companies. In doing so, we have an ownership stake in the company. The management & board of directors have an obligation to the owners of the company, not an obligation to the employees. Boeing is good example. If they fail to maintain costs and take advantage of cheaper labor alternatives, they are failing me as an owner of the company. If Boeing can get someone to do software testing more effieciently at a lower costs, they have every obligation to do so. They are forced to remain competitive, be efficient, adapt to ever changing market conditions & increase the bottom line. If they don't, investors will sell the stock & they run the danger of becoming non existent. It is just a fact of competition.

It is also possible to outsource certain jobs, while increasing the total job market. It is just redistributing labor capital to efficient areas. Long gone are the days when you could just go to work for a company & expect to work there for many years.

Eventually if enough jobs are moved over seas because is good for the bottom line, you will not have customers able to pay for your product because they will be out of work. (maybe not things may just turn around when the countries that now have all the customer service people figure it out and start charging more)

Of course none of the products are any cheaper, just the money you and your investor buddies get is more.

In the end the country and everyone in it will pay the price.

What guys like you fail see if how cost cutting in customer service areas can cause the product to not sell as well.

It is far more important now then ever because through the internet, one guy can run around and REALLY hurt you products rep, if he is pissed he had to talk to an Indian guy reading a script.


All the BS about staying competitive is just that, customers do not get anything but a bad deal out of this, prices do not change, and investors just get a few pennies more.

Competitive greed mongering is more like it.

What happened to the days when putting out a good product was as important to the company as the bottom line?

People like you came along.

[StSanta]

You got some good points. However, outsourcing is happening and it's happening for a reason.

We're punished for our own success. It has driven up labour cost and threatens to make any field that offers manufactured goods (be it physical goods, analysis, software development) uncompetitive compared to what we call "third world countries".

You need an edge on the competition. It can be price, quality, customer care, what have you. But you need that edge or your company is going to fail.

And you're not hiring people out of your good nature. You hire people because you have something that needs to be done and they offer their services.

Now, depending on what you prioritize (low prices, good customer service etc), you may benefit from outsourcing. Of course, it's total **** for some guy who really wants to work, has done nothing wrong, live in an expensive country and therefore needs a much higher salary than an Indian just to survive.

For now, it's been that salt-of-the-earth workers that have been hardest hit - seamstresses, automobile workers, programmers. I have however seen a growing trend towards outsourcing of middle management and even higher. So, let's take Ripsnort - he's in a good position right now, managing offshore and internal dudes and dudettes. His bosses have made cost-benefit analysis and feel that his immediacy to the situation, overview and skill warrants his 10 times as high salary.

For now. Same guys who joke with 'im and think he's an asset to the company will dump him the second the cost-benefit analysis hits red and there's an alternative.

Don't sit too comfortably in your chairs gentlemen. I'd advice ya not to get too many mortgages on yer houses or loans for cars and guns.

When I've made myself expendable to my company, I see no reason why my boss shouldn't fire me and hire the Bulgarian I've trained. However, I have few loans. No house, no car. Very modest life, except the skydiving bit. If the sh|t hits the fan, I can handle it. Heh, I can even make a living as a professional packer or tandem master while I get the training in a field that is resistant to outsourcing (service industry is good there).

Once the great world economy has levelled off (not in our lifetimes), outsourcing will be a relic of the past.

Bottom line; if ya have little to lose, you'll probably manage.

[BigGun]

Originally posted by GtoRA2
Eventually if enough jobs are moved over seas because is good for the bottom line, you will not have customers able to pay for your product because they will be out of work. (maybe not things may just turn around when the countries that now have all the customer service people figure it out and start charging more)

Of course none of the products are any cheaper, just the money you and your investor buddies get is more.

In the end the country and everyone in it will pay the price.

What guys like you fail see if how cost cutting in customer service areas can cause the product to not sell as well.

It is far more important now then ever because through the internet, one guy can run around and REALLY hurt you products rep, if he is pissed he had to talk to an Indian guy reading a script.


All the BS about staying competitive is just that, customers do not get anything but a bad deal out of this, prices do not change, and investors just get a few pennies more.

Competitive greed mongering is more like it.

What happened to the days when putting out a good product was as important to the company as the bottom line?

People like you came along.

People like me came along? You must be kidding or don't have a clue about how global capital markets function. I have a job where I am charge with earning returns for given level of risk. I take the fiduciary duty very seriously. Bottom line, focus is on investing in good companies which increase chance of getting high returns. If i don't do my job, there will be someone then that comes in to do it.

Corporations are not naive to just focus on bottom line. They also know the have to produce a product/service which is in demand, either that or they suffer the consequence. Great thing about capitalism & competition is that is has a natural way to weed out the inefficient. Companys that learn to adapt to changing global markets do well, others that can't run risk of becoming extinct. So many examples to look at. Take US Car manufacturers. How long can they continue to lose billions of $$ per quarter. If they can't adapt, they will become extinct and all those people working for them. There number one problem is labor unions, being force to pay high wages which make products non-competitive. In the long run, that can not persist.

Also, there is all this talk about jobs going over seas. While this may be the case, there has been significant net job growth in the US over past couple years. And I would also argue consumers benefit significantly from global trade & competition.

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by BigGun
People like me came along? You must be kidding or don't have a clue about how global capital markets function. I have a job where I am charge with earning returns for given level of risk. I take the fiduciary duty very seriously. Bottom line, focus is on investing in good companies which increase chance of getting high returns. If i don't do my job, there will be someone then that comes in to do it.

Corporations are not naive to just focus on bottom line. They also know the have to produce a product/service which is in demand, either that or they suffer the consequence. Great thing about capitalism & competition is that is has a natural way to weed out the inefficient. Companys that learn to adapt to changing global markets do well, others that can't run risk of becoming extinct. So many examples to look at. Take US Car manufacturers. How long can they continue to lose billions of $$ per quarter. If they can't adapt, they will become extinct and all those people working for them. There number one problem is labor unions, being force to pay high wages which make products non-competitive. In the long run, that can not persist.

Also, there is all this talk about jobs going over seas. While this may be the case, there has been significant net job growth in the US over past couple years. And I would also argue consumers benefit significantly from global trade & competition.

That was a cheap shot on my part, and I am sure you take your job seriously.

Corporations are not naive to just focus on bottom line.

This is where I think you are wrong, or maybe you just deal with the corps smart enough to see the big picture.

MANY corperations do not focus on anything but the bottom line, and in some cases when the claim they do care about more, they are not willing to spend another dime on fixing problems withen the company.

Unless you have worked in these companies, looking from an outside viewpoint, you may not catch it.  They will go very far to hide problems from Investors.

[indy007]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Check Northwest Airlines as an example of this blatently criminal corporate behavior. Takes federal dollars. orders airbuses with it. dumps american workforce. executives bail with multi-million dollar salries and parachutes. company declares bankruptcy. Sickening.

The salaries are ridiculous, that's very true... but aren't half of the components in airbusses outsourced from europe to american companies? Even if they had ordered Boeings, a good chunk of the parts come from overseas. My main gripe about that would be using federal dollars for any of it.

I have a question that simplifies alot of the mindset behind it though... well, it does for me at least... Who's responsibility is it to maintain someone's financial security? Their own... right?

[ghostdancer]

To put it pure and simply this is all about greed on the part of coporate america. It has nothing at all to do with whether the person doing the outsources job is hard working or competent.

Why do I say this simple.

Is there a single american company who uses outsourced individuals who have reduced the price of their products or services?

I do a lot of freelance work, being on the marketing and design side it is very hard to outsource my job over seas. An Indian or Chinese company does not understand our culture enough to come up with effective advertising, graphic desing, or marketing for the U.S. market and vice a versa.

But I have experience a lot of clients who then use outsource programmers.

The outsource companies charges I have seen have ranged from $11 an hour for a senior level ASP / .ASP net programmer to (3 years experience) to $6 an hour for junior level programmer. Now remember the Indian outsourcing company is taking a bite of this so the actually Indian programmer is making in some cases less than our minimum wage.

The kicker is they are getting software application / programmer work done at these levels but they are still charging U.S. clients $100 to $125 an hour for the work.

Have any of you seen the cost of a single software product go down after they switched to outsourced help?

How about the cost of single manufactured product made overseas in China, etc. go down at all? Laborers paid less than a U.S. worker but the product is still priced the same.

So workers are paid peanuts over seas, we are still charged U.S. rate for the services, product, etc. that costs half or a 1/4 of what it used to do with a U.S. worker. So only the company and the share holders benefit.

As pointed out .. well you started destroying the salaries and earning power of people over hear .. who is left to buy your product or service at what they charge?

[Midnight]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
I have no doubt that more jobs will be lost. I also have no doubt many thousands more will be saved since a company will become more competitive in a global market.  One mistake I've seen time after time again is complacency in ones job. Never stop learning, always look for something better, never "expect" to have a job, complete your work like someone else wants your job. That's the key to survival today in the job market.  Most importantly, save money, and never put yourself in a position where you *need* a company pension or Social security.

LOL.. Rip.. Like Hangtime said, take a look in the mirror. You've probably spent at least an hour today in this just this thread, reading and replying. I'm sure Boeing could outsource someone to do your job too if they knew how effecient you were being.

Just remember, Boeing makes very high dollar equipment that requires large investments from one of the worst struggling industries in America. Ticket prices for airlines are going up because of energy costs which is going to cause Americans to travel less. Less travel means the airlines struggle more, which means they start cancelling orders or not making them in the first place.

Corporate America's greed is steadily chipping away at the stability of our economy and ability to stay ahead.

It is the Share holders and execs who think they are so much better than all of the other people out there that makes it even worse. Of course it is cheaper to outsource, because the people in India, China, etc. are willing to work for so much less because they don't have a clue as to what they are NOT getting. It's great for them to be able to afford a 2 bedroom appartment so they and the 10 other people they live with can have a little more room and maybe afford a car for the family.

Meanwhile, share holders and execs look down their noses at us while they wonder which BMW they should drive and how big they should make the 2nd indoor swimming pool at their forth vaction home.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by Midnight
LOL.. Rip.. Like Hangtime said, take a look in the mirror. You've probably spent at least an hour today in this just this thread, reading and replying. I'm sure Boeing could outsource someone to do your job too if they knew how effecient you were being.

Just remember, Boeing makes very high dollar equipment that requires large investments from one of the worst struggling industries in America. Ticket prices for airlines are going up because of energy costs which is going to cause Americans to travel less. Less travel means the airlines struggle more, which means they start cancelling orders or not making them in the first place.

Corporate America's greed is steadily chipping away at the stability of our economy and ability to stay ahead.

It is the Share holders and execs who think they are so much better than all of the other people out there that makes it even worse. Of course it is cheaper to outsource, because the people in India, China, etc. are willing to work for so much less because they don't have a clue as to what they are NOT getting. It's great for them to be able to afford a 2 bedroom appartment so they and the 10 other people they live with can have a little more room and maybe afford a car for the family.

Meanwhile, share holders and execs look down their noses at us while they wonder which BMW they should drive and how big they should make the 2nd indoor swimming pool at their forth vaction home.

Midnight. I get 4 weeks vacation a year. I'm using some of it this week thank you very much.
As for my job, I know that I could be replaced at any moment. That's why I am always in some sort of education training, school, and I network with other professionals as well. Its dog eat dog. You have to be ready to be replaced. If you're not, don't cry victim to me, because I've been ready, and have been through 4 career changes due to lay-offs, job outsourcing, etc. within the same company. I've tolerated 1 lay-off, 2 labor strikes, and more "60-day warn notices" than you could imagine.

 As for the rest of your post, typical left wing crap. "Corporations are eviiiilllllll! They don't care about people!  EEEEEEEviiilllll "  SOS, just a different thread.  As for my evil corporation, my house is paid for in 8 years. I retire in 12. If they laid me off tomorrow, I could still go into early retirement because I've prepared for retirement since I came into this company in 1979.

[Stringer]

Global Sourcing and Supply Chain is what I do for a living.

I've been to more than my share of factories throughout Asia and across much of the globe.

Outsourcing is an undeniable fact of corporate life.  To not consider it as a very viable financial tool is irresponsible.

But let's also remember that, in certain niche markets, the US is being used as an outsourcing base for other countries.

Also, a trend I've seen lately is bringing back some products or services that had been outsourced earlier.  As corporations evolve and go through the successes and failures of different outsourcing projects, they bring back those which, while more costly up-front to produce domestically, yield  better bottom-line long term results.  Or items that cannot be as profitable with an elongated supply chain.

[ghostdancer]

Yep, problem is they are willing to work for peanuts. Why because the cost of things in their country is not the same as here.

What is the cost of medicine or a doctor in their countries compared to here? What is the cost of food? Housing? Electricity? etc.

In many cases they don't have access to things we take for granted. It is not really unions driving up costs it is simply the cost of living in the U.S. and many western countries.

I live in south florida. The average cost of a house down here is $300K. The cost for a single bedroom apartment is $900. This is not something a union has done. It is the cost of living here. Meaning you have to make a wage that will allow you to live in south florida (btw $900 a month = $10800 a year, $6.15 minimum wage is $12,792).

Corporations are shifting more and more medical cost to the worker. Retirement benefits are a joke and they are doing what they can again to shift things so that worker puts in the lion share into their 401Ks (less matching, no matching), etc.

So corporate american is shifting the burden to the individual for health and retirmenent as much as they can get away with. Then they turn around and outsource their labor to countries where a person making $6.00 an hour is more than a liveable wage in that country.

I don't blame the person in the country .. they are making good money for where they live and in light of their standard of living. However, these companies turn around and sell their services and products in the U.S. market at the same rate as before.

And as pointed out sooner or later the majority of people will no longer be able to afford their products or services in the country because they have no longer are making the salary that allows them to spend money on anything but the basics.

Short term the companies really profit, long term they are destroying the buying power of their customers. Hard to buy things when you are out of work or barely getting by.

[Ripsnort]

"A firms decision to replacing workers with machines is identical to the motivation for outsourcing". Economist Thomas Sowell  from the University of Chicago  said "anything that increases economic efficiency--whether by outsourcing or a hundred other things--is likely to cost somebody's job. The automobile cost the jobs of people who took care of horses or made saddles, carriages, and horseshoes." Walter Williams, another economist, said "we could probably think of hundreds of jobs that either don't exist or exist in far fewer numbers than in the past--jobs such as elevator operator, TV repairman and coal deliveryman. 'Creative destruction is a discovery process where we find ways to produce goods and services more cheaply. That in turn makes us all richer."

Professor Drezner reports that for every dollar spent on outsourcing to
India, the United States reaps between $1.12 and $1.14 in benefits. Drezner also points out that large software companies such as
Microsoft  and Oracle have increased outsourcing and
used the savings for investment and larger domestic payrolls.
Nationally, 70,000 computer programmers lost their jobs between 1999 and
2003, but more than 115,000 computer software engineers found
higher-paying jobs during that same period.

I wonder how many Hangtimes there were at the turn of the century bashing the guys that worked on mechanical machines, rather than relying on humans or horses?  "MISINFORMED"....its not a beauty pageant queen, fellas...

[BigGun]

Originally posted by Midnight
It is the Share holders and execs who think they are so much better than all of the other people out there that makes it even worse. Of course it is cheaper to outsource, because the people in India, China, etc. are willing to work for so much less because they don't have a clue as to what they are NOT getting. It's great for them to be able to afford a 2 bedroom appartment so they and the 10 other people they live with can have a little more room and maybe afford a car for the family.

It is the shareholders that own the company. Without shareholders, there would be no company, no jobs to be outsourced. Why do you think people are shareholders of a company? For the benefit of society as a whole? To be good samaritan & to help people maintain high standards of living? Don't be naive. People buy stock & risk their capital in order to earn returns. Pure & simple, stock holders are looking to make money. Nothing wrong with that. Without their capital there is no company or jobs. Increased earnings are a driver in stock returns & profits.