Election in Iraq

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Disneyland? Ha.

As a former law enforcement officer, I can safely assure you that few are as cynical as I am with regards to human nature. Seeing the dregs of society and being cursed, spit on, attacked, and even shot at gives you an entirely different perspective.

That does not mean that I would ever wish to allow anyone who is struggling to do what is right and to be free to instead remain in shackles and downtrodden. Nor does it mean I would be unwilling to help them, even at great personal risk.

Personal attacks? For someone who is quite willing to say an entire country should remain under the power of a murderous tyrant because "they" aren't "ready" for freedom and democracy, you have a real sensitive thin skin. You passed judgement on an entire race and country because of the actions of a few, and you expect your position to go unchallenged? Too damned bad.

[Krusher]

Originally posted by deSelys
Thanks for your answer, Capt VH. I hope that no MP will erase it because of the personal attacks because your reaction is very interesting.

I'll keep my answer simple: get out of Disneyland and step in the real world. Yes, I'm cynical and yes, I don't have much faith in the human being. It's ugly, but as 2000 years of history are proving me right, it's probably the sanest way of thinking.

I'll add a last comment: I believe tha

WOW if only we had had your vision and faith in WWII,  Lots of US and civilian lives wasted to get rid of a tyrant. If only we could get those 300,000 lives back so someone could say "I told you so" I am sure there were pleanty of people who thought the same way because they knew it all in advance.

[Saintaw]

Here we go again.... bleh.

[Gunslinger]

http://michaelyon-online.com/media/video/15Dec05Election.wmv

Disintegrating indeed


I have to wonder what bubble some of these writers are living in.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Why you pompous, self important, worthless, snivelling craven coward.  

Brings a tear to my eye. Seems like the good ole days.
Don`t worry bout it too much Cap`n. If they wish to take a closet commie`s article to heart, let em. I think it`s quite hilarious actualy.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Saintaw
Here we go again.... bleh.

Yes, here we go again. Your buddy pronounced judgement on an entire country and said they weren't "ready" for freedom or democracy. Several are calling him on it, he's trying to justify it and you're trying to back him up.

In the eyes of most, to deserve freedom you only have to be willing to fight for it. You don't have to be perfect, and you don't have to overthrow a tyrant with an army rated in the top ten in the world for size and strength with a couple of thousand men and primitive weapons.

However, in the eyes of your buddy, and evidently you as well, in order to be "ready" to be free, you have to be perfect. You cannot make mistakes in who you elect. You cannot make errors in how you set up your government, and you must agree with the way Europe and the UN think. You must be willing to die fighting a fight you cannot win, and you must not expect to get outside help or wait for outside help. You must also setup this perfect government in 90 days and have perfect peace and order in 180 days.

So, in your eyes, no people or nation on Earth has ever been "ready" for freedom or democracy.

In light of your views, we suggest you immediately surrender all your freedom and rights to self detemrination, and go quickly submit to the nearest suitable tinpot tyrant and suffer until someone better than you decides you are "ready" for freedom. Short of that, we kindly ask that you STFU and go hump someone else's leg for a decade or two.

[Krusher]

Originally posted by Yeager
If you thought having elections in iraq was a good thing, read this:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article334476.ece

The article starts with this:

 "Iraq is disintegrating"

Let us all hope for the best

2 seconds worth of google show Patrick Cockburn's bias. He has been calling everything about Iraq a failure since day one.

If the partial results are confirmed, no party will have enough seats in the 275-seat parliament to form a government by itself. This is the way it was designed, a coalition goverment "has" to be formed it will not be a shia only club.

[Saintaw]

You sure seem to read a lot in 5 words. My "here we go again" was refering to Krusher's WWII reference. You are again taking credit for something you haven't done... a habit on this board. (With a few exceptions of course).

"I did my part! ... I sent a 5$ voucher"

Again, it might look good from that high horse you're standing on... nevertheless, let's see where the election results takes them in 6 months time... feel free to quote me then. untill then, you STFU.

[Goth]

I think there is a lot of knee jerking going on right now. I don't think that the elections will put in another tyrant. From the euro liberal rag, check out this US liberal rag on these issues:

Iraqi Elections

The elections will determine Iraq's first full-term National Assembly since the 2003 U.S.-led invasion. The government to be formed by the four-year parliament will face nothing less than the remaking of Iraq: whether it should be a secular or strongly Islamic state; whether it will be unified or split into three or more sectarian and ethnic sub-regions; and whether it will have war or peace. Political violence since the current government took office in April has killed tens of thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of U.S. troops.

I it's anything like a typical parliment or congress, much won't get accomlished, but at least these people are now able to decide for themselves. You euros need to lighten up and allow others freedom and the chance to get out of the dark ages instead of trying to continue to hold onto your colonies.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I'm not taking credit for anything at all. I never served, I was rated 4F at the ripe old age of 18. I never claimed to have served, and never claimed I did anything in any way. However, a huge number of my friends have served. To a man, they believe in both the Afghanis and the Iraqis, and that they will be able to achieve freedom and democracy, but they don't expect it over night, nor in six months. Maybe not even in a couple of years.

Oh, a $5 voucher?  I give regularly to the USO and other organizations that support the troops. I also volunteer for those organizations because I could not serve, and now that the restrictions are relaxed I'm still two years too old.

[deSelys]

VH, I'm not justifying anything. I'm telling you what's happening and what will happen if US forces leave Iraq too soon. I won't enter the mudslinging fight that you're trying to start, but everyone tries to fight at his advantage, right?

1) I don't know where you've got the impression that Iraqis were fighting against Saddam. I don't remember that an insurrection was going on before and during the US intervention. The only rebels who are active now are fighting against the US.

2) Toppling a regime, evil or not, without a serious candidate to take leadership is moronic. This is exactly what US has done in Iraq. It's funny that all of you guys proning a firm education on your kids (which I'm proning too, btw) haven't realized that most men need to be led. Democracy works (barely) in the western world because the culture and the society had time to evolve and adapt. Shove it down the throat of a population which has only lived under oppression and it won't last long. Usually, chaos develops and another ruthless tyrant grab the opportunity to seize reigns. It happened so many times in african and asian countries in the post colonization era and the US hasn't grasped the concept yet?

3) To affirm that GWB and his gang have invaded Iraq to free its oppressed population is less realistic than the BF 1942 flight model.

4) for your career, law enforcement myself. Never been shot at, but it's probably due to our failed gun control system. OTOH, don't assume my unwillingness to insult you in return as a thin skin. Feel free to continue if it helps you, but I suggest to use PMs so your posts won't be deleted.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I'm not slinging mud, I'm stating fact. By saying they're "not ready", you're saying they're not worthy, and less than you are. That's a fact. If you think you are ready for freedom and they aren't, you judge them as less than you. You are insulting a whole nation of people, and I'm calling you on it.

Yes, the Iraqis have fought against Saddam. He's managed to murder them (his enemies in Iraq) by the thousands, if not millions. Haven't read about the mass graves found full of his victims? Open your eyes. They've been struggling for decades, just because they've been ignored doesn't mean they haven't. That you choose to ignore the thousands who sign up to fight the TERRORISTS does not make them go away, and does not make them imaginary. It makes you look like a fool.

The free world toppled Hitler with no viable replacement in mind, did the same for Hideki Tojo (sp?). Should they have left them in power because they didn't have a replacement in mind? Not hardly.

There's no doubt that Iraq was invaded to remove Saddam as a threat in the best interest of several nations who chose to participate. The fact is that it frees the Iraqis as well is part of the original goal, as it was the goal to replace Saddam with a leader able to deal with the rest of the world in a sane and reasonable manner.

No need for a salute, I followed my Dad, he was there before me, after he served in two wars. I bowed out for selfish reasons. I will not PM you anything, as anything I wish to say to you I'm willing to say in plain public view, as I see no shame in stating it. if Skuzzy deletes my posts, or an MP does, it won't be the first time, nor is it likely to be the last. I have no reason to hide my contempt for your elitist position with regards to an entire nation or region.

[Eagler]

let's ask the average ink stained finger Iraqi if they think we should have given them their freedom...

I care what liberal europe thinks about it as much as I do what liberal America does ...

[deSelys]

Mass graves are not a proof of rebellion. The nazis murdered millions of people who weren't even fighting against the regime.

Germany and Japan were toppled then held during years under the supervision of allies. I've just read a biography of Doenitz and the author explained that a german poll in the 1950s showed that more than 25% of the population was still favourable to Hitler. I wonder what would have happened if Germany had been left alone as soon as 1946.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Those people you refer to were declared to be enemies of the state, and were killed BEFORE they could rebell. Just because there was not an obvious, armed, violent rebellion constantly in progress does not mean there was no effort to rebell. By the way, Saddam put down more than a couple of armed open rebellions. Again, open your eyes. We failed them after Desert Storm. This time we didn't.


Only liberal Europe and the Democrats (with some exceptions) over here are even suggesting a total pullout on Iraq OR Afghanistan in the hear future. No one who was in favor of starting the job in the first place is considering quitting early. Only fools are demanding a date or a timetable for complete pullout.

In ANY nation you'll find a percentage who prefer evil. SOME people like it. I thought you were a serious student of human nature. OF COURSE you find people who like Hitler, Stalin, Attila the Hun, Ivan the Terrible, and any number of other tyrants. How the HELL do you think they gained power?

As to the terrorists you so kindly refer to as rebels, they are terrorists, nothing more, nothing less. The vast majority of them are killing Iraqis (especially civilians) because they can't really succeed against anyone else. They are not part of the majority, they do not represent Iraq and those Iraqis who yearn to be free. They represent those who desire a return to the tyranny of Saddam, where THEY held power, or those who desire any number of other tyrants, where THEY would hold power. They are the enemy of freedom, not freedom fighters. They exist EVERYWHERE, not just in Iraq, Afghanistan, or the Middle East.

It never ceases to amuse me (it has long since ceased to amaze me) how people will tell you how terrible a job you are doing and how stupid you are, and yet demand you stay and finish the job. This is a PERFECT example.