The most Uber plane ever!

[Pooface]

Originally posted by Tilt
Best WWII (saw action) combat AC award goes to the Me262.

nah, easily the fairey battle



General characteristics
Crew: three
Length: 12.85 m (42 ft 2 in ft)
Wingspan: 16.46 m (54 ft)
Height: 4.72 m (15 ft 6 in)
Wing area: m² ( ft²)
Empty: 3,015 kg (6,647 lb)
Loaded: 4,895 kg (10,792 lb)
Maximum takeoff: kg ( lb)
Powerplant: 1x Rolls Royce Merlin II 12-cylinder Vee-type, 770 kW (1,030 hp)
[edit]
Performance
Maximum speed: 414 km/h at 4,572 m ( 257 mph at 15,000 ft)
Range: 1,609 km (1,000 miles)
Service ceiling: 7,600 m (25,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 280 m/min (920 ft/min)
[edit]
Armament
1x .303 in (7.7 mm) Browning machine gun in starboard wing
1x .303 in (7.7 mm) Vickers K machine gun in rear cabin
4 x 250 lb (110 kg) bombs internal
500 lb ( kg) bombs external


muhahahaha, imagine the whines of the lgays when a battle pwns em all over the place muhahahaha

[BlauK]

Simple truth

[Crumpp]

It's the same old numbers game. You can skew it anyway you want. It's an unanswerable question unless we build a time machine and put Allied pilots under the same set up as LW pilots and vice versa. You might get a better idea then, but since we don't seem to be able to do that, it's all speculation.

It's not unanswerable.  Facts are the Luftwaffe was grossly outnumbered and was also made up primarily of very poorly trained pilots.

While those pilots who recieved the pre-war standard training died at the same steady rate throughout the war, the hastily trained replacement pilots bore the brunt of the numerically superior allied onslaught.

The allies benefited from the Luftwaffe's mistakes in the Battle of Britain.  The Luftwaffe made the mistake of attacking with almost numerical parity in single engined fighters against an enemy with far superior logistical system, production capacity, and ability to concetrate it's forces at the tip of the spear.  The allies horded their forces until they built up overwhelming numerical superiority and the range to deny the enemy sanctuary.  

Numbers of flying hours in training:

http://img124.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=90f04_flying_hours.jpg

Numbers of Training hours of all types:

http://img134.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=e3f23_Training_hours.jpg

From the size of the forces opposing the 8th USAAF it is plain to see that the Luftwaffe was never able to mount an effective defense against the allies once their weight of numbers was brought to bear.  The Luftwaffe was simply too small a force.  The report concludes that the 8th USAAF fighters outnumbered their opponents in 1944 an average of 8 : 1 in the air at the tip of the Spear.  Allied escort fighters were typically able to attack with positional advantage when the Luftwaffe units were climbing up to intercept the bombers or attack immediately following their attack on the bomber formations before the Luftwaffe fighters could reorganize.  Oscar Boesch was shot down several times by USAAF escort fighters.  Each time the allied fighter got on his tail during his attack on the bombers.

http://img120.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=676f8_size_of_opposing_forces.jpg

However this increase in fighter opposition did come at price for the allies.  They suffered a 340% increase in losses when compared to operations in 1943.  Comparing these loss rates with the numbers of training hours, it is easy to see the post war German after action reviews were correct in their assesment of the hastily trained wartime pilots bearing the brunt of the conflict.  Those pilots benefiting from the pre-war training regime died at almost the same steady rate throughout the war.  With such a poorly trained force however, the loss of even a few experienced formation leaders was catastrophic.

http://img121.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=cb883_loss_rates.jpg

The range of 8th USAAF escort fighters:
 


If you can draw any performance conclusions from this information it would have to be that the Luftwaffe would have needed much more than fighter performance that was equal or traditionally advantaged to overcome the numerical and experience disadvantages in the air.  They would have required fighter performance that was vastly superior to prevail as they needed to have pilots gain experience and win in the combat at hand.  As it was only the small percentage of trained pilots could hope to have any chance of success.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Not my point Crumpp.

It's the notion that so and so had 300 kills for the LW and no Allied pilot came close so the LW pilots must have been better.

No Allied pilot flew the sorties etc to even have a shot at that due to the rotation policies of Allied air forces that the LW couldn't do because of the numbers they were facing.

So out of that mess there would have to be some that beat the odds and survived to rack up all those kills.

Reverse the situation and put the pilots of any country in those circumstances and you'd have some that would somehow survive all those sorties with lots of kills.  

Thankfully Allied pilots had that rotation policy.  I can't imagine the strain the LW drivers were feeling after a time, but I know if you look at the photos of some of the Experten, you can see the strain on thier faces.  They look beaten up from the constant ops, which was to be expected.

[Crumpp]

It's the notion that so and so had 300 kills for the LW and no Allied pilot came close so the LW pilots must have been better.

I agree.  

The vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were very poorly trained.  They were pretty much cannon fodder for the much more experienced allied flyers.  It is highly unlikely you will be able to fly your aircraft to the edge of the envelope in combat when your situational awareness is not developed to see the enemy and your flying skills make normal flying maneuvers a challenge.

There are several allied aces that had better sortie to kill ratios than many high scoring Luftwaffe experten.  In fact Eric Hartmanns ratio is rather average.  The number of times he fought in the air though was not.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Guppy35]

Just as a sidenote.  I was looking at Caldwell's photo history of JG26 and there  were a number of group photos from 43.  In the captions he'd include KIA, POW, WIA, KIFA etc.

It was amazing the attrition rate of those guys.  I think there was one where 7 of the 10 in the photo were KIA or KIFA. Just about every photo had at least half KIA.  That's a heckuva stat to face every day and I have to believe they noticed the empty chairs and the new faces.

I went back to some of my group photos from 41 and 91 Squadron in 43 and couldn't find a ratio even close.

In one photo with 28 ID'd pilots in it, I could name 2 KIAs and 8 POWs.  But again, these guys rotated out after a set amount of combat hours.

[Crumpp]

True.

The decline in German Fighter pilot training began in the fall of 1942:

http://img124.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc24&image=90f04_flying_hours.jpg

Here is more on JG26's casualties.  Goto "Combat claims and Casualties":

http://jg26.vze.com/

Including the entire casualty list for the Geschwader.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by BlauK


Simple truth

Yeah baby yeah!

[frank3]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
Maybe they should have called a timeout and had them ditch the Kawanishi H6K's and H8K's and allow them to still get slaughtered in the Zeke's they flew?  Or maybe they could have flown in the Hayabusa's, Tony's, Ki-45's, or the 428 N1K2J's that saw an Allied fighter and were shot down?

Your post is one of the most useless I have ever read.  The Japanese and Germans didn't do something the Allies did, turn the "Top Pilots" into Trainers.  

Karaya

You can't posibly say the number of kills made an aircraft the best?
What I am saying is that a certain aircraft could score the most kills by placing it in the right time, amount and place.

The P-51 was in many ways better than the P-47 (though not all) but it scored less kills. Why? Because the P-47 was put into action much earlier, in greater numbers.

There's no such thing as 'the best plane'

[Sable]

Originally posted by frank3

The P-51 was in many ways better than the P-47 (though not all) but it scored less kills. Why? Because the P-47 was put into action much earlier, in greater numbers.
 

The stats I've seen from America's Hundred Thousand show the P-51 being at 4950 claimed in europe vs. 3082 for the P-47.  What source are you looking at?

[Crumpp]

The stats I've seen from America's Hundred Thousand show the P-51 being at 4950 claimed in europe vs. 3082 for the P-47.

Claims in and of themselves are meaningless.  

Both of those numbers seem rather excessive.  I would imagine they are aircraft of all types claimed destroyed both on the ground and in the air.

Here is the total USAAF claims in the ETO:

 


All the best,

Crumpp

[indy007]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!!!!


Well y'all did say "Uber plane" and not "Uber fighter"

13 minutes to 15k, 31.8k service ceiling, 358mph @ 25k, 12x.50 on the -29A + 20mm, 10 tons of ord.... and NOOOOOOKS!!!!!11!11!111

[Jester]

Originally posted by BlauK


Simple truth

I KNEW IT! I KNEW IT! It was only a matter of time when speaking of an "Uber Plane" than some Finn was going to show up with a picture of a freaking BUFFALO!  

Just surprised it wasn't Kantori that posted first! He is probably in the sauna somewhere wasted on Vodka!

Guys!

[KAntti]

Well if and whenever the überplane-numbergame is played, its the Brewster that plays the best hand.

Please dont start the war if your not going to finish it HAHAHAHA LOL LOL LOL  

EDIT: no offence intended

[jaxxo]

"The vast majority of Luftwaffe pilots were very poorly trained. They were pretty much cannon fodder for the much more experienced allied flyers."

This statement is totally inacurate for the first 2 years of the war..german had all the experienced flyers at first from what ive read..they were beat by attrition and allies gaining experience....how many german aces were there having ridiculous ridiculous amount of kills?  if u were to say a ratio of german pilots to the ratio of allied pilots having experience maybe..lotta variables... Heck the germans called the brits formations the "row of idiots" due to their tactics..time changed all that.