Whats going on in Canada?

[lazs2]

hugehead... we are not far apart at all on the matter of making criminals pay for crime.

We are worlds apart on what is to me... the human right to defend oneself from powerful enemies.

I would also say that you have a large percentage of fellow canadians that feel as I do on this.   You seem to feel (I could be wrong tho) that the vote of the majority trumps the rights of the few?  Is that correct?   I would say that many fellow canadians would be even less polite to you and your views than I am.   they would (and rightly so) feel that you are tyrannizing them and that you are an enemy that will get them and their family killed.  Your intentions are not important.

I understand that the rat people in cities are different.   I don't care how they solve their problems so long as they leave me alone to do it.    

My example was in reply to curval but... yes... the bad guys are often stopped by aremed citizens... 1.5-3 million times a year here.   1/3 of all school shootings were stopped by armed civilians.   criminals interviewed are much more frightened of armed citizens than they are of police.

do I want gang violence to end?  sure.   Am I angry when something like the LA shootout happens?  sure... but it just proves to me (and the bad guy) that the world is an dangerous place and that if you take up arms against an armed society... you will probly go down in a hail of bullets... Every decade or so tho...  some gang will try...they will die and the politicians will use it to try to disarm the citizens... laughable.... can't believe you buy into it.

Look at air marshalls... would it be better if they were in uniform?  NO.  the bad guys don't know who they are...  gun control pansies on this board told me way back when (when I suggested restarting the air marshal program) that it would just make things worse.... like arming pilots...

that is not what happened.  What happened is what I said would happen.

lazs

[lazs2]

as for the gun accuracy thing... I answered your question... I told you about inherant accuracy.   (about 2" at 25 yards or 6" at 100 for most handguns)

I did not say that I could hit a running man who was shooting at me at that distance.  I wouldn't even try.  I have missed running rabbits at 20 yards.   If he is running there is no point in shooting at him.  if he stops and aims at someone else or is running in a line away from the crowd to his car with and unobstructed shot....

if he is in his car...

Point is... he won't be paying attention to me in the crowd... but I will be paying attention to him.   He doesn't know if I am a threat or not.   I have a lot more options than he does.

more fearful to me would be a robbery situation in a bar or resteraunt or store.

lazs

[HugeHead]

Lazs,

Canada and the US are totally different where gun control is concerned due to our history and frame of reference. Polls bare this out. A massive majority of Canadians do NOT want to see hand guns legalized. Long guns are another story and I do NOT support the Liberal parties outrageous gun registry nor, do I wish to take guns from hunters or farmers or enthusiasts as long as they are responsible in the use of these weapons. So, you are operating from a misconception in that Canadians would view remarks such as mine as an imposition on their freedoms. Quite the opposite.

I respect your skill as a marksman but, I also respect the random nature of such violence and how you can not ever predict how such a situation will go. Let's keep in mind these animals were shooting at each other and managed to take down 5 innocent people.

IMHO the more concealed guns on the street the more likely it is for someone innocent to die as it happened this weekend; regardless of who has the gun in their hands. I do not wish to have any private citizen in my community weilding a concealed weapon with the mindset that they have some kind of responsibility to use it to protect those I love.

I also respect your thoughtfulness and honesty in this debate and I appreaciate it sir.

Regards,
HH

[lazs2]

HH... first of all... What do you mean by "vast majority"?   Do you mean like 55%? 60% 80%?    does it really matter?  do you feel that because you are in the majority that you have the right to vote away say.... 20 million peoples rights?   a million peoples rights?   half a million?

Your claim that concealled handguns on the street causes such deaths or increases them is not born out by fact.   The U.S. states with concealled carry do not have the problems that you assume would happen.... quite the opposite is true.   Israel and other countries with open carry of firearms do not have the problems you imagine....  Armies of hormone heavy youths with machine guns and automatic rifles do not have the problems you suggest.   Why do not the soldiers serving in iraq for instance shoot each other after an arguement?


As for the situation in question...every situation is different of  course.   In this one... It would appear that if an armed citizen took a shot from cover and knowcked out one or more of the shooters..... lives would have been saved... He would not have to be a great shot.... just a good one who knew his limits.   If there was no easy shot.... he would just refrain and the situation would be no worse.... but.... I contend that, like here.... canadian minorities would confine their bloodbaths to the ghettos if they were met with armed resistance.    I am going by history here (as I have shown) not by what I think might happen.

I have no problem discussing the whole gun control thing with you but when you try to take away what I consider my rights.... We are enemies...I feel that anything up to killing you is justified to keep them.   I think that you would be surprised that a lot of canadians who have had their right removed by your idea of "democracy" feel much the same.

No reasonable discourse can happen once one group feels that they have the right to vote away anothers human, inalienable rights.

lazs

[Callisto]

QUOTE]Originally posted by HugeHead

 I do not wish to have any private citizen in my community weilding a concealed weapon with the mindset that they have some kind of responsibility to use it to protect those I love.


Regards,
HH [/QUOTE]

 theres a diffrence between gun crazy wanna be cops and reponisble gun owners who want to protect themselves.

If you dont want to protect your familay thats, fine.. thats your choice..
But why can't I as a responsible, taxpaying citizen  have a choice to protect  myself,my property and my family?  

Or..keep the gun ban, but give me a cop to protect me 24/7 and i'll never complain.



Police  is useless and can't protect me at the time crime occurs.. They always come to the scene AFTER the crime(and that takes some time), and by then its too late..



I think guns can save lives too.

[Ping]

Are we talking the same thing here?
Canadians do have the right to own long arms and if trained to own handguns.
We just dont have the Carry conceal rights.
 Think of it as in the wild west where you had to hand over your side arms to go to the bar in town. Canada is just one big bar
Canada has not allowed CC for many many years and up till now it has been fine. What we do need to act on is the lax laws and punishments for serious crimes that has eroded this.
 The US and Canada are very different in this regard. But at the same time we do operate in entirely different environments. What works for one may not work for another.
 If it comes down to living in the same conditions you have in some of your troubled sections of cities, then hand me a pistol and I will pack.

 As for home invasion...I'm prepared, consequences be damned.

[lazs2]

The wild west again?   More myths... In the "wild west" no one was asked to hand over their guns... they just were not allowed to carry openly.  There were no laws against concealed carry.   This brought out the popularity of the "pocket gun" and the "saturday night special".

I will concede that what works for one country may not work for another but... it does seem that you are having the same problems with the same minority groups over about the same things in countries that have a lot of the same laws and customs and share a language, border and trade and the sense to drive on the correct side of the road.

You are welcome to believe that you are in more danger from your neighbors with concealled carry permits (the 1-5% who will bother to get em even if given out freely) than you are from minority gangs.

I find it hard to believe that is the case tho.

You do seem willing to break your laws to protect yourself and your property tho.   Don't get me wrong.... I believe that you have a human right to do so but.....

How do you justify protecting yourself with a firearm but dennying your countrymen and neighbors that right?

lazs

[detch01]

Originally posted by lazs2
... it does seem that you are having the same problems with the same minority groups over about the same things in countries that have a lot of the same laws and customs and share a language, border and trade and the sense to drive on the correct side of the road.

HH : I'm in favour of removing the effective ban on hand guns in Canada. Do I see a need to carry one for my own protection? No. Not here, at least not yet. But they are a lot of fun to shoot and should the unthinkable happen a useful tool in defending ones self, loved-ones or home. You can't say the same for long-guns in enclosed spaces.
The problem is that the judicial system in this country seems to believe that its duty is to nurture these poor, unfortunate, oppressed thugs and protect them from the meanness of society.  Guns, other than having become the weapon of choice for the gangs in this country have little to do with the problem. If guns weren't available they'd be using knives or machetes, or whatever else was handy.
The cure for the situation isn't making guns easier or more difficult for law-abiding citizens to acquire. The cure is to hold individuals responsible for their actions and make judicial punishments fit the crime. When the Canadian judicial system stops being the joke it is we'll see an improvement.
laz2 - the quote above Explain please. Which minority groups are you referring to? Blacks, Philipinos, Chinese, Mexicans, Vietnamese, Ghanians, Nigerians or Europeans... who? And why does the ethnic origin matter. I am curious.


asw

[Rino]

Originally posted by Ping
I will add one more to the sentencing HH.
Undeniable caught in the act murder, You get the Death sentence.
Canadians in general are not blaming the US. Its those spineless corrupt Politicians looking for votes from a fed up public who are.

     Well those guys, and Curval of course

[Vad]

Lazs, just m 2 cents.

More than 50% of Toronto population are first generation immigrants, and most of them came here from the third world countries. They have neither traditions nor experience to carry guns. Moreover, some of them came from "hot" places, where usage of weapons for solving family or neighborhood problems is good tradition.

I am strictly against concealled gun. But if  handguns were permitted I would get it for sure. And most of others would do the same. First, because most of us had no chance to do that in our own countries, and prohibited stuff is always attractive. Second, it would be really dangerous to be unarmed in crowd of armed people most of whom are keeping handgun for the first time in his life.

So, I would say that we will get not 1-5% of those who will buy handgun but 50-60%. And huge percentage of them came from really wild places few years ago. For example, from Russia where alcohol intoxication is the result of tens of thousand homicides every year.

[HugeHead]

Very thoughtful, perceptive and provactive comments to be sure. Can you make the case that ethnicity is at issue here or is this simply a case of people being conditioned by a cycle of violence both in their country of origin and in the communities they live in here?

What makes one 12 year old turn to gangs and another not?

Shouldn't we all be outraged that life could possibly have come to mean this little to some people in our community? I'm not talking about the thugs who pulled the trigger this past weekend. I'm talking about that 12 year old kid who might be holding a gun in his hand right now. Am I a bleeding heart in your view for finding that incredibly abhorent?

Regards,
HH

[Ping]

HH:
 I don't beleive any of us are saying that its because they are (example) Somali that they are doing this. But the facts are Ethnic gangs, irregardless of reasons, are a serious problem.
 You are right that the root problem needs to be addressed, but I for one am not going to be PC as regards race or religion, If a certain race based gang is causing a problem in certain areas we should be able to state that. And this also applies to gangs of white scum. ie. biker gangs in Montreal during the biker wars.
  We are not branding entire races or ethnic groups by labling gangs by their makeup.
 
Laz:  The wild west comment was just a small attempt at humour. I also am not making a case against CC laws. Somene having a concealed weapon doesn't bother me. Just that we do have a very different situation between countries, tho ours is getting worse.
 If someone is stealing our Cars then so be it, I can use the insurance money
  , However if someone is going to break into our house to cause us harm then I feel morally obligated to protect the lives of my family.
 I am also rural so the response time for the police would prolly be in excess of 20 minutes.

[beet1e]

More guns, less crime!

[storch]

Originally posted by beet1e
More guns, less crime!

more guns=less (as in zero) criminals in my neighborhood

[beet1e]

Originally posted by storch
more guns=less (as in zero) criminals in my neighborhood

No guns (as in zero) = less (also as in zero) criminals in my neighborhood