Whats going on in Canada?

[storch]

Originally posted by beet1e
No guns (as in zero) = less (also as in zero) criminals in my neighborhood

really? shouldn't that be no tools (as in zero, going back to the dawn of man ) still = criminals in your neighborhood because you would be A). implementless and B). are far too soft to defend yourself and prevent a strong armed assault?  

[lazs2]

as for minorities or ethnic groups... I have no answers as to why..  I am merely being pragmatic.  In the U.S. a very small portion of our population commits over 50% of the homicides.  I make no claims or excuses as to why this is so...  that is for other people to work out.

I will say that I don't care who is doing the shooting or gang activity... I want to be armed in any case.  

There seems to be some misconception here as to how many people would apply for pemits and then carry handguns...  the history of such use indicates that on average... Only about 1-5% of the population that could get permits and carry actualy would.

I am not trying to be offensive here (you will know when I am) but...

How is it that the people here who know allmost nothing about firearms and handguns especially.... How is it that you are so against them?   Where did you get these myths and ideas?  Don't you realize that it has all come from the media that in other circunstances... you would laugh at much less, use as a basis for a position?

Seriously... HH where did you learn these things about handguns?  

lazs

[lazs2]

vaed and HH..  while I make no suggestions on how to handle your criminal classes...  I point out that unlike the scenario you point out...  Concealled carry would not make it legal for gangsters and criminals to carry...  nothing would change for them... being caught with a handgun would be the same penalty as it is now.

I would suggest concealled carry for citizens and tougher penalties for criminals.

Taking away the guns from society and making them difficult to get will not make the country any less murderous or crime ridden...

Beet likes to point at the low murder rate of his country (except of course.... scotland).... His criminals still exist tho.... the murder rate in england is the same as before any of the draconian gun bans and the crime rate is actually higher...  people have to cringe under their beds when gangs of burglars come.... If you shoot one with an illegal gun you would be in worse trouble than a lifelong criminal.

Is that what you want?

Our crime rate and murder rate continues to fall while 3 million guns a year are added to our inventory of guns in the hands of private citizens...  Women are the fastest growing group of gun owners...  millions of concealled carry permits have been issued and the people with them are the most law abiding of any group of people.

lazs

[HugeHead]

All these things about handguns? I don't believe I made any claims regarding the technical aspects of handguns except challenging the accuracy of one in a panicked crowd with multiple people shooting. I base that challenge primarily on my awareness of the "random factor" so prevelent in such events.

What you can't do is assure me your resolution to this kind of tragedy would not result in the potential for more innocent victims being just as likely as less. Primarily this is where you and I have a disagreement. The rest is basically akin to "metaphysics".

I appreciate your passion and I respect your views however, all I've really said here is that it's highly unlikely the Canadian public would support legalizing hand guns even if they were convinced of your (and Im not even arguing them) statistics. Polls to-date bare this out.

I understand you may find it a violation of personal freedoms that 85 percent of my country is able to dictate laws to the remaining 15% but, currently thats how democracy works here. Add to this the different history of my country compared to yours and I really don't see this as an issue in any kind of doubt.

I have used long guns. It's part of my family traditions and heritage and at a young age I was introduced to the old dependable 22 and moved up from there. And although I have had a handgun pointed at me, I myself have never pointed one back.

Regards,
HH

[beet1e]

Originally posted by storch
really? shouldn't that be no tools (as in zero, going back to the dawn of man ) still = criminals in your neighborhood because you would be A). implementless and B). are far too soft to defend yourself and prevent a strong armed assault?  

Storch - no, I meant what I said. And I've lived in this three horse town for the past 23 years. In that time, there has never been a shooting or a murder. Or if there was, I've never heard about it - which seems unlikely in a town with only 6400 people.

When you said that more guns = less crime in your neighbourhood, less than what? "Less than" is a relative quantity. I'm asking you what you're using in this comparison.

[lazs2]

HH..  sorry... but I don't think that 85% of the population have the right to remove human rights from the other 15%.

I can't assure you that there would not be an ocassional wrongful or accidental death by a concealled carry holder but history of such use in the U.S. and other countries shows that it simply is not a factor.

I was responding to you and to vad so there may be some confusion but.. I was refering to your lack of understanding on.... accuracy... amount of people who would actually carry guns if it were permited and... your feeling that you couldn't trust your countrymen with a concealled gun... or more to the point that, your family would be in more danger, not less.

The fact that there were 1-5 out of 100 citizens with a concealled gun would (and does) make criminals think twice about assaulting or harming your family around other people....

The scenerio you are fostering will in effect, give the thug who is willing to break the law with an illegal handgun or a club or a group of his friends... you want to give him all the power... you want to put your family at his mercy...  I, on the other hand, would be grateful to know that someone in the crowd may be able to do something other than run away and maybe call 911.

The worst types of crimes against your family go down when you are allowed concealled carry...  Some may go up... you may have more late nite or parking lot breakins of your car for instance.. but that is minor compared to assault and burglary and rape wouldn't you say?   These major crimes are somewhat detered by the criminal wondering if the helpless victim may be armed.

lazs

[storch]

Originally posted by beet1e
Storch - no, I meant what I said. And I've lived in this three horse town for the past 23 years. In that time, there has never been a shooting or a murder. Or if there was, I've never heard about it - which seems unlikely in a town with only 6400 people.

When you said that more guns = less crime in your neighbourhood, less than what? "Less than" is a relative quantity. I'm asking you what you're using in this comparison.

other neighborhoods, but it's not really a fair comparisson because we are a gated community and have a ten man private security force and it is in turn bolstered by off duty metro-dade police personnel who patrol in here.  a few years back a resident was assaulted by her gardener because she refused to lend him money.  even with all the security in here it was her neighbor who came to her aid with a pistol and subdued the man until the security team arrived seconds after the phone call was placed by the neighbor's wife, followed by the police and later the sensation seeking news crews.  other than that I cannot recall another incident occurring here but we are only 188 homes.

[Curval]

Originally posted by storch
we are a gated community and have a ten man private security force and it is in turn bolstered by off duty metro-dade police personnel who patrol in here.  

Goodness.  Is this in the US or South Africa?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Curval
Goodness.  Is this in the US or South Africa?

LOL - that was exactly my thought too!

[storch]

Originally posted by Curval
Goodness.  Is this in the US or South Africa?

the gangy types usually don't invade each other's homes they invade the homes of those who have more and better stuff than they do.  nothing is ever stolen in this community.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs2
Our crime rate and murder rate continues to fall

Nope. In the years 1999-2003, the homicide tally went up each year  - from 13,011 in 1999 to 14,408 in 2003. In about 70% of these homicides, a firearm was used, and of those firearms homicides, about 77% involve handguns. Now I know you're going to very quick and point to the "per capita" statistics, but I can tell you that  according to the US Census Bureau, the US Population rose by about 4.7% between 2000 and 2003, but homicides rose by nearly 9% in the same period. So you're still wrong.

There has been a slight dip in 2004 however, but it's too small a shift to be considered as an overall trend, besides which 2004 was the first year this century in which the US homicide total actually fell - down by around 300 on the previous year.

Source: FBI website .XLS document

For anyone interested in analysing US homicide stats in greater depth, there is a whole series of reports in .XLS format on the Murder page of the FBI website: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/violent_crime/murder.html

[Curval]

Well hey...whatever makes you feel safe in the "land of the free" I suppose.

Beet1e...in deep, dark and dangerous England, where only the crimminals are armed and "people have to cringe under their beds when gangs of burglars come" do they have these gated communities, or are they only reserved for the gentry or something?  

How have you managed to protect yourself from these roving gangs or angry money borrowers without such?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Curval
Beet1e...in deep, dark and dangerous England, where only the crimminals are armed and "people have to cringe under their beds when gangs of burglars come" do they have these gated communities, or are they only reserved for the gentry or something?  

How have you managed to protect yourself from these roving gangs or angry money borrowers without such?

I don't know, Curv. Lazs has been here himself and even in a relatively high risk area of London, he said he felt as threatened as he might feel at a Church bingo night, so maybe he doesn't even know.

Not that many gated communities here that I know of.

I'm hoping to hire a gardener next year, but I'm scared he might threaten me with a trowel and demand money from me.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by eagl
The only thing that will really be missed are the Canadian high-flow toilets...  

   

Hold on...you mean that high flow toilets are still available in Canada?  I am OTW to Windsor RIGHT NOW to get me some of that...

[rshubert]

Originally posted by beet1e
No guns (as in zero) = less (also as in zero) criminals in my neighborhood

Yet, Scotland has the highest incidence of violence in the western world.  Hmmm...No guns there, either.

When I was in London this month, the news carried many stories about shootings in the area, particularly about a shooting that happened that week.  I wonder where the gun came from??

By the way, did they get that oil terminal fire put out yet?  Darned thing stank up my trip!