I might be heartless...

[midnight Target]

Actually no, the point of the lyric is that the surety of youth will give way to the wisdom of age. Today you may be absolute in the knowledge that you speak the truth and consequences be damned. Tomorrow you may waken to the realization that there may be other truths just as valid.

[vorticon]

nirvana, simple as this: if the guys died, and they were nothing to you, give em a quick respectfull nod, and move on, and dont get in the way of those who were close to him and are doing there clumsy best.

dont show up at no candle light vigil because you feel forced, and if anyone gives you **** about it, defend yourself. but if you show up to make mock, or to avoid taking **** for being "heartless" it makes YOU worse than you perceive them to be.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by nirvana
Oh and Octavius didn't know about your uncle, thought about your mom, your dad, grandmother, aunt...uncle just seemed like it would do, no disrespect intended.

Oh, no disrespect at all.  When it turns into a circus with pomp and bogus tears,  sincerety goes out the window and everything involved is tinged.

Try not burn too many bridges in your crusade.  

[Guppy35]

Is it possible that the folks you are so fed up with, are doing the best they can with something they shouldn't have to be dealing with at that age?

My 15 year old daughter and 21 year old son were killed in a car wreck at the end of August.  The kids came out of the woodwork from school for the funeral.  Some sang in the choir, a couple played and sang both my son's and my daughter's favorite songs.

They did the counselors there to talk bit at school for those who wanted to.  If you looked at it, I suppose you could say it was overkill.  I don't know.  I figure people were doing the best they could with something that there is no correct way to deal with.

I didn't see it as a popularity contest, as my kids never ran with the 'popular' crowd.  Did some folks seem to 'cry' louder and longer then others?  I suppose.  But it's such a goofy unreal thing that I can't be angry at them.

That being said, there is no script for how someone mourns or deals with death.  I know my wife, my surviving daughter and I all deal with it differently.  For me it's a much more solitary thing, late a night when the house is quiet.  Then the emotions come out and I can let myself feel the pain..  I can't talk about it yet, outside of typing like this.  My daughter doesn't want to accept it at all.  My wife talks about it often.  I don't know that any of us are doing it wrong.

I remember back when I was a senior in High School, the gal I took to senior prom was killed in a car wreck a week before graduation.  I remember seeing a lot of what you saw, and wondering why I couldn't feel that.  But it was too surreal to me then.  It didn't make sense and I couldn't put it into a slot that let me understand that someone so vibrant and with so much going for them could be gone just like that.

I'd suggest not worrying about the others, and allowing yourself to mourn the person that clearly has affected you with their death.  

The others are allowed to mourn their way, you mourn your way.

No explainations needed.

[nirvana]

I've decided not to attend.  What I did in my first post to my friend was incite something that I shouldn't have.  I should have let it be and let them live in their world of misery.

Candle light vigil-Not attending, I thought about giving a eulogy type thing but I decided against it, what's the point?

"Dressing up" on Monday-Not doing it at all, and i'm not going to dress really horribly.  I'm going to dress how I normally dress.

I've stated an apology to my friend that was hurt the most by my immaturity, whether it did anything or not is questionable.  I actually think she contradicted herself by saying even if you didn't know them you should still feel sad because then she said no one knew my supervisor so they shouldn't be sad about him, but instead of starting another mudslide, I decided against it.  I'll let them live but damned if I don't come home from school Monday pissy because of all the people crying.  I'm serious, it has turned into a mockery.  At times I question whether they are acting out of kindness or out of selfishness for popularity.  Either way i'm keeping the trap shut.


Would it be in bad taste to complain to the school if they hold a memorial service for the whole school?

[Guppy35]

You are allowed to feel or not feel as you choose.  No one can dictate your emotions.

If they do a school wide memorial, let it be.  If you choose not to attend, that should be up to you.

It's the wrong cause to fight over.

[NUKE]

Would it be in bad taste to complain to the school if they hold a memorial service for the whole school? [/B]

Yes. Way beyond bad taste......don't do it.

If you don't agree with it, just don't attend.

[nirvana]

I'm saying I never even knew either of the 2 that died and thus i'm feeling nothing.  You could say that i'm numb to death, but i think that would be a lie.  I think i've come to accept, no matter who or what causes it, is a fact of life.  No one lives forever so when it's time to go, it's time.  It just seems to me like some people are trying to pull something out of thin air, like when your favorite celebrity dies and you feel like you have some sort of special connection with them.

In the end they all have the surreal disbelief thoughts that I used to have.  Thinking that they will wake up in a few hours and they will see their faces again, but it's not going to happen.  It's the final round and it's over.  It's something I used to have a hard time coping with.  I say, "Only time will cure your pain" and they don't believe it.  They only want to see their friends back and I can understand that.  As hard as some people are taking it a suicide seems like it's closing in, and i'm saddened to say that.  Some people feel like they have hit rock bottom with this.  Their first death that they can truly comprehend.  Never feeling such a loss and emptiness.  I won't entertain thoughts of mocking them though, I will let them be as they please.




Here's the link for the story http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_4346809,00.html

The kid could face some major stuff, under 16, probably not supposed to carry passengers under 21, crossed lanes.  Parker Road has a 55MPH speed limit so it probably wasn't by any means slow.  Sad.


P.S. Nuke, it's not an attend or not attend, you WILL attend.  It's like school pep rallies, nothing is optional.

P.P.S.  Sorry about your son and daughter Virgil, my condolences.  Thanks for sharing.

[Guppy35]

I don't  believe for a second that time will heal the pain from the loss.  That's speaking for me.

Each morning when I wake up, the answer is always the same.  My kids aren't coming home.  

Is that a fact of life?  Absolutely.  Nothing is going to heal that wound.  I won't ever be the same.  I don't expect to be.  Two huge pieces of my heart have been taken from me.

Don't get to quick to make blanket statements about loss.  

Will the kids at school move on?  You bet.  Yet those closest to the kids killed will be affected by it longer.  I know my daughter's two best friends have really  struggled.

One of the things they struggle with is how fast things got back to 'normal' at school.  They're angry that it seems like people are forgetting already.

I understand that to a degree.  It's hard when you know you have to go on, but you want to make sure the kids aren't forgotten.  10 years from now, outside of my family, who'll care that two very special people died in August. Who'll even remember.

It's a hard thing to process.  

Again, you have to let people feel what they feel and deal with the losses as they choose to.  No one can do it right, as there is no right way to do it.  

You have your way, they have theirs.

[vorticon]

"P.S. Nuke, it's not an attend or not attend, you WILL attend. It's like school pep rallies, nothing is optional."

only doors on prisons are locked to keep people in, its merely a matter of walking out the front door when they call it, and if your worried about trouble (with the school, or other students), duck into a bathroom on the way, and slip out a back door. either way is preferable to lip-service.

[nirvana]

I'm serious about this Vorticon, school security will 1, lock the door or 2, guard the doors.  Once you are in the gym or auditorium you are there for good, no bathroom breaks.  If you decide to leave you are truant, I.E. breaking a law.  Our security guards are like Nazi's, they can ask for identification at any time, and if you don't have it.....well off to the school administrators to deal with you how they like.  If you would like me to participate in civil disobediance it might not be a bad start for me.  Hell i'll tell my mom she might have to pick me up for truancy, guess what, she will do it.  that's a whole other issue though.  And yes, we do have bars on or school windows.

[Guppy35]

I wonder why you are reacting so strongly to this nirvana?  So they take a half hour and you sit there out of respect to the two who lost their lives.

Regardless whether you knew them or not, they were people.  For no other reason, I'd think you could tolerate the 1/2 hour if you had to.

No one can force you to feel anything about it, but sometimes we do things out of respect for our fellow human beings.

I guess it's part of being a community.

If you feel that strongly about not attending, then talk to your folks.  Explain your reasons, and see if they'll let you remain at home that day.

If not, just sit tight and get through it.

You seem to be giving too much energy to those who you see as frauds in all this.  Might as well get used to it.  You'll encounter them all your life.  It's still up to you whether you let them get to you or not

[nirvana]

It's my upbringing in that if you see something wrong, fight it.  Sure I could sit in complacence for 30 minutes or an hour, whatever.  I respect them as human beings, but I am also ready to move on with my life.  I'm reacting as if i were the one that was dead.  I wouldn't want my friends carrying on and crying about it.  I'd want everyone to carry onwith their lives, a tragic end to a young life.  Of course that is just my opinion and what i would like to happen, I have no influence of how others react.  

In fact it was wrong of me to tell people that I was not going to feel any pain for the two young men, because that is what started it.  People started forcing their beliefs that even if I didn't know them I should still feel pain for them, and I didn't like that.  I liked it as much as my teacher telling me that she "owned" me while I was in her class.  I have a brain and I have a mind, I use them.  If someone doesn't like my opinion that's their fault.  I'll accept their grieving, i've offered a shoulder to cry on, but I won't be acting like I knew them.



I don't even think that made sense, i think i'm just starting to ramble and repeat what I say.

[Octavius]

Keep it simple and tell'em you think their efforts, while with good intentions (or fake tears, hard to discern), come off as disrespectful.  Take a step back for a few days and approach from the beginning for new perspective.

[nirvana]

I think i'm gonna take a step back and never return.  They can feel sorrow and feel pain and all the other stuff that is associated with death, but if I can avoid it, I am going to.  In this case, it's highly avoidable.  There's no need for me to be involved anymore so why should I be.  It seems like no one wants me involved and if I was, there wouldn't be anything but sadness for the young men that I feel have been disrespected.  I might have even disrespected them by bringing up this thread and shining more light on the subject.  It's not my problem unless I make it my problem.