Author Topic: Buff guns...  (Read 4140 times)

Offline thndregg

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Buff guns...
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2006, 12:11:00 PM »
I fly buffs A LOT along with others in my squad.  I agree with the opinion that tactics and patience need to improve if you are to be successful in tearing my planes to pieces.  In many flights, I have shot down an assortment of planes that rely on thier heavy cannons to do the work, but they are easy to pick off nonetheless because the are stuck in that level 6:00 position.  Some are successful eventually in taking me down that way, but not before I've killed at least three planes.  The ones that ARE successful, without sustaining serious injury, TAKE TIME and climb, get "E" built up, and B&Z either from above to below, laterally, or in some cases, head-on.
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Offline Midnight

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Buff guns...
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2006, 10:38:18 AM »
Talk to SkatSr on how to kill buffs. He does it in a P-51 all the time.

Here are his K/D stats for last tour against the bombers

B-17G: 28/4 - that's 7:1
B-24J: 108/2 - that's 54:1
B-26B: 41/2 - that's 20.5:1
Ki-67: 3/0

Those numbers show a couple things. One is that if you know how to attack a bomber formation, you can kill them without getting your own arse shot off.

The other, has also been discussed before... The bomber damage model seems to be too easy. The B-24J, especially, dies easily. I for one have been able to kill 2 in one pass, using a P-51D with 6x .50 cal guns. Two coordinated P-51s can kill a formation of 3 B-24s in less than 30 seconds.

Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2006, 12:55:35 PM »
B-24 wasn't exactly noted for its ability to take damage. At least, not the early models.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Kolibri

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More heros
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2006, 12:58:34 PM »
We need more heros like Midnight.

What are this 51 dweebs doing?

They climb to 25k - come down with 400mph and more - attack the buff with much speed from the left or right frontside.

-rofl

Not everybody is happy with wasting time in a pony climbing that much. But thats the way they doing it. And not everybody like to fly a dweeb pony.

:lol :lol

Offline Krusty

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Buff guns...
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2006, 02:45:50 PM »
If buff guns are overpowered then I must be doing something wrong...

Note that an earlier formation in the same sortie took my engine down (but I got my revenge!).

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1136407491_110vb24s.ahf

EDIT: although... there are the odd times when I'm in a fresh plane and the VERY FIRST PING out of a bomber kills me instantly or shreds my wing. Those BS instant kills are not so common.

Offline Zazen13

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Buff guns...
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2006, 02:54:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Saxman
Good points, BH. To add to that, on several occaisons I've seen someone up a bomber formation (primarily B-26s) as an airborne AAA platform. WTF?! Something's not right with that picture.


I can't tell you how many times I've seen fighters get out-flown and run to bombers for escort and help..There's something messed up with that..

Zazen
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Offline Midnight

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Re: More heros
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2006, 02:55:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kolibri
We need more heros like Midnight.

What are this 51 dweebs doing?

They climb to 25k - come down with 400mph and more - attack the buff with much speed from the left or right frontside.

-rofl

Not everybody is happy with wasting time in a pony climbing that much. But thats the way they doing it. And not everybody like to fly a dweeb pony.

:lol :lol


Where do you get such a foolish opinion from? We dweebs of the 412th RARELY get above 20K anymore because it's a waste of time going up there. Guessing, I would say over 80% of bomber kills are below 16K (under the cloud layer).

But yes, we make attacks from high 6:00 positions, diving very fast and making concentrated shots on inboard engines. This usually results in the Bomber catching fire and then explosion shortly after.

Offline USHilDvl

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Simpler than All That
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2006, 11:14:20 AM »
I'm with thundr on this one...

I certainly cannot say that I have any way to measure the modelling of the .50 cals in the game...been done to death anyway by people who've never fired a single round from one.

However, as for bomber hunting performance, I'll say this:

If you know how to buff hunt...you will win.

If you do not know how to buff hunt...correctly...you will die. Every time.

Each and every piece of equipment in this game has advantages and disadvantages.  If you fly/drive your advantages, and correctly target the nme's disadvantages...you'll win.  This is nothing new.  

If you fly up behind a buff formation, with barely enough energy advantage to maintain the climb, run out of patience and attack from the wrong position or e-state, you will die.

Last night alone (or night before??)...on one flight...I took out 4 fighters...all from dead-six.  They came up full power, but in a steep climb...struggling the whole way and bleeding off energy.  Get up to altitude, begin a slow creep to close range...the whole time I'm watching.  I held fire to lure them in..."no shots fired from the bombers and I'm only 400 out!"  When I finally decided to let loose a 1 sec burst...it was an insta-shred.  That can easily feel like something wasn't "fair", since death would be sudden and unexpected.  But...can't fault the game...only the tactics.

Be patient...take time to build speed and altitude...and remember what tactics work, and which don't.  The .50's could be shooting dried peas for all it matters, and if you attack dead-six...you'll know why they call it "Dead-6"  There are potentially 20 guns firing at an nme attacking the lead bomber from dead-6.   I'm not sure about over-modelled...but that's no place for any aircraft to survive.

Also...it's supposed to be dangerous to attack bomber formations!

Speed, Angles and Surprise...How to Hunt a Buff.

..and just in case....I'm opinionated, not flaming anyone  :D


Offline thndregg

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<S> Simaril
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2006, 01:24:09 AM »
Last map, you and I BOTH demonstrated excellent pilot vs. gunnery skills.

I very much appreciated the good fight, and the compliment that followed, even though it was short and came to a draw.

I will write up an AAR of sorts later on.

Simaril:aok
Former XO: Birds of Prey (BOPs - AH2)
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Current Assignment: Dickweed Heavy Bomber Group

Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2006, 01:54:33 AM »
Here's a brief example from a week or so ago that something is at least slightly flakey.

I'm at ~10k, cruising to target when I spot a con on the map at the field I'd left, so I turn around and head back. Thinking it's the usual pork runner I start shedding alt, then suddenly find myself with the con a good 5000ft above and heading towards me. I pull back up, he passes me (still out of con range) and I start a climbing spiral to follow and regain alt, at which poing I'm still lagging behind him.

Finally I get back to co-alt and decrease my climb rate to pick up more speed. The con turns back towards the field, at which point I'm FINALLY conning him as a solo B-24. I'm now above him by about a thousand feet, turning to follow, and end up more or less at his 9 o'clock High, ~1.5k out. By this time I've also got my speed back. He starts shooting at a range of ~D1.5k. And he's HITTING ME. D1.5k with nearly 90 degrees of deflection (I'm pulling ahead of him and climbing, but it's pretty close).

Long story short we're at 15,000 feet and I get above the soup, start making diving passes through the cloud layer and flame him.

The point is, in the GAME, even a P-38 has problems hitting a target at 1.5k with Brownings and a 0 deflection or saddle shot, but THIS guy was pinging the HECK out of me from a POORER firing position (he only stopped shooting because I got above the cloud layer and he lost vis).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline thndregg

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AAR
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2006, 09:39:08 AM »
Okay, now that I've had my coffee this morning...

  I was returning from a strat bomb run at 20k in what remained of Knight-land last night.  Heading east I encountered a Bish mission heading west, followed by an enemy con some distance back above 20k.  I radioed those that were still in range about it and continued on my way home, all the while keeping an eye on the high dot.

It didn't take long before that dot turned and caught up with my flight.  I identified it as a P47, although I don't recall the variant.  He hung out straight above at approximately 1.5k distance for a few minutes, tipping wings to get a look at his intended victim.

Finally he dove.  The few shots he fired hit their mark on my right wing causing fuel leak.  I had great difficultly training by top and tail guns on him due to the speed of his dive as he sped down past my 6:00.  No hits on his jug at all.

I switched suddenly to the ball guns, instinctively knowing where he would be coming up at as he recovered his alt.  He still had enough "E" built up as he ascended from low on my right that he got out of range.  My last chance was the chin-gun, thinking I might get SOMETHING on him before he went back up to his initial tactical position.

To my surprise, I landed enough shots that smoke emerged from his engine.  So the next concern for me was whether or not he would desperately come back for another pass even though time ( and the loss of oil pressure) was not on his side.  To my relief, he continued on his present course, extending away from me back towards the safe haven of his countrymen.

I recieved a salute from the pilot of that 47 on open channel, and he complimented me on my quick gunnery skills, and I expressed to him my admiration of his skills and patience.

Simaril.  It was a brief fight, but an excellent example of patience and accuracy.  Nicely done, sir.
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Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2006, 11:36:46 AM »
My point was this guy was lighting me up ACCURATELY from D1.5k at ~75-90 degrees deflection. I'm talking like 5-10 seconds until I got above the cloud layer there was a constant stream of pings. Probably the only reason I wasn't dead after that was because at that range the .50s had lost their hitting power. I can accept a lucky shot at that range, but THAT kind of sustained accuracy?

BTW, Rooklander. That sucked losing the last map (and to have Rookland suddenly turn into Knit country with no gas to get to safe territory. I was near A200 patrolling for a couple pork-running P-47s). :-P Eh well, I shot up a radar tower and fuel dump before map reset.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Kweassa

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Buff guns...
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2006, 02:19:56 PM »
The perceived problem is the maximized "cone of fire" effect.

 Like Karnak said some time ago HT himself clarified that the buff guns don't just converge automatically at a single point, with the so called "laser-targetting" accuracy. While the explanation was a bit vague, since IIRC he didn't exactly explain how the guns converged to what accuracy, I think we can loosely assume that all the buff guns will just 'try' to shoot at the point where the current defensive gunner is aiming/firing at. It won't EXACTLY converge at a single point, but all the rest of the gunners will fire towards it.

 Now, the "problem" in my theory, if we can agree there's such a thing, is this:

 Bear in mind that while a nose/centerline armed fighter armament is much more powerful and efficient when it comes to destructive power, the actual ease of hitting the target is better with wing-armament due to the shots spreading out in a so-called "shotgun effect". The P-38s with 4x .50s in the nose, will always hit grouped shots that are deadly. However, the same 4x .50s with the P-51B, won't be as destructive due to the convergence problem, but will be much easier to land 'pings' on the target.

 The problem with the wing-armament is that armament like 4x .50s or 6x .50, or sometimes even 8x .50s for that matter, isn't as efficient due to the nature of the shots spreading out. The RAF, moments before the opening of WW2 IIRC, used a standard convergence pattern which spread the shots out in a "box" pattern. However this idea was quickly discarded with the actual advent of combat, as WW2 fighter experience proved that spread out shots are basically worthelss. It is for this very reason a much more powerful HMG like the .50s, still needed 6~8 guns at the price of all the extra weight.
 

 However, imagine the "shotgun effect" of a three-plane formation of bombers this time. Look at how all the gunner positions vary slightly in its placement, and then consider another group of variation in placement due to three bombers flying in a Vee formation.

 In a word, it might actually be easier to evade buff guns if they truly did converge at a single point. In this case, if the defensive gunner doesn't aim the gun exactly right, most of the bullets will miss the target. We now know that the guns don't EXACLTY converge at a single point. However they do fire at the target direction up to certain accuracy.

This means, in essence, a mungo shot-gun effect of easily 10~20x 50cal HMGs are now brought into effect by the buff formations (!!!) Instead of all guns converging at a single target point with slight variations due to dispersion, 10 to 20 .50cals are sprayed towards the target at an very large circular pattern. If the general aim of the defensive gun position the player is sitting at is reasonably good enough, in effect a big circle of .50s are sprayed in the entire area. In this case the number of .50s pointed at the target is so numerous, that shots being sprayed are not much of a problem.

 
 Assume you are trying to hit a B-17 formation from the left in a sweeping pattern. Add in the fact that the buff guns fire through the drones to what is explained above, and what you'll be facing is a "shotgun" that fires rounds at 800~1000rpm, with a firepower equivalent to that of 21 (count them.. twenty-one!!!) 50cal guns.

 Yes, twenty one. Two from the ball turret, two from the tail gunner, two from the upper turret, and one from the port side waist gunner... multiplied by three, since the guns fire through the drones and doesn't have a "halt fire" or "interrupter gear" angle.

 Scattered fire that is out of convergence from four 50cals may be shrugged off... but a scattered fire from twenty-one 50cals with a maximized cone of fire is just plain deadly. We have veterans claiming they can kill buffs easily, but that is purely situational. Against experienced buff gunners in a three-plane buff formation the only safe way is a coordinated attack with numbers of at least three interceptor planes. IIRC, it was Urchin and Toad who tested this out, with Toad claiming that buffs aren't a problem. The results, I believe, was all Urchin defended all three buffs, with only minor damages to a few of a drones.

 
 In a word, imagine a situation where there are three P-51Ds behind you, at the exact same interval and intenisty, all of them aiming at you generally, and spraying all their guns non-stop until ammo runs dry. That's what going against buff formations is like. Either catch them offguard, or meet a very inexperienced gunner. Someone even remotely experienced in defensive gunnery, and the interceptors are basically toast.



 IMO, some ideas without the introduction of "Otto",  to solve/ease this problem;

1) Stop buff guns from firing through other planes in the formation

 This one is an absolute. This will at least make it possible for the interceptor plane to cut down on the number of guns pointing at him.

2) Add a 'randomization' factor that greatly reduces the effectiveness of all the hand-held guns on board

 With the suggested randomization factor, all 'slaved' hand-held guns like the waist guns, will be firing at the general direction of the target point of the current defensive gun position the player is manning, but in many cases their dispersion will vary upto great levels.

3) Add vibrations to guns

 The mechanized guns should have a small vibration effect. The hand-held guns should have a big vibration effect.

4) Add a varying interval of gun fire.

 When the guns from the currently manned position begins to fire, all guns slaved to it will start fire... but after that they will fire at varied intervals. Instead of acting like a one big shotgun with 10~20 barrels, they will fire at random intervals as long as the manned position keeps his trigger down. This would sort of depict individual gunners on board stopping fire, correcting their aim, and etc etc..
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 02:22:57 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Simaril

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Re: AAR
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2006, 07:53:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by thndregg
...snip...

Simaril.  It was a brief fight, but an excellent example of patience and accuracy.  Nicely done, sir.


It was fun on my end, too. Just wish it didnt take so long to get the high alt fights going!

You're supposed to learn from clashes with skilled enemies, and this engagement taught me that my attack profile was too shallow on pull out. Up to this point, that near vertical high speed dive threw enemies off enough that I could level out, extend and begin the climb ahead for the next pass at my leisure. From now on, I'll plan on dropping nearly 1k below before levelling and extending. It'll mean a longer rebuild for the next pass, but it also means I wont take pings on extension!

thndregg
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Offline Simaril

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Buff guns...
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2006, 08:03:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
...snip...

 Scattered fire that is out of convergence from four 50cals may be shrugged off... but a scattered fire from twenty-one 50cals with a maximized cone of fire is just plain deadly. We have veterans claiming they can kill buffs easily, but that is purely situational. Against experienced buff gunners in a three-plane buff formation the only safe way is a coordinated attack with numbers of at least three interceptor planes. IIRC, it was Urchin and Toad who tested this out, with Toad claiming that buffs aren't a problem. The results, I believe, was all Urchin defended all three buffs, with only minor damages to a few of a drones.

 
 ...snip...


Really interesting perspective, Kweassa.

With AI controlled gunners pending in TOD, these ideas will be important considerations. However, in the MA -- the proof is in the pudding, as they used to say. The fact remains that buffs are almost always easy kills. The KPD ratios posted above show that bombers are very vulnerable, and that they die far more than they are killed.

I suspect this is true because most experienced players get bored with buffs and spend their time in fighters or vehicles. I flew mostly buff missions when I first started, and I think that's true of many others. When experienced players fly buffs regularly, they tend to get a name for themselves and are treated with respect by knowledgable attackers.

Because buffs die SO often in the MA, I dont think its practical to talk about any limitations on their gunnery effectiveness. I also suspect that buffs are an important link in the AH business model, since they keep players having some fun -- and continuing to subscribe -- during the painfully long learning curve.
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