Author Topic: Buff guns...  (Read 3826 times)

Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« on: January 02, 2006, 03:12:57 AM »
Does anyone else here think that the way Buffs are set right now, with the ability to fire all guns in the formation at one target with absolutely insane accuracy make them seem a bit... overpowered in their defense?

I'd like to propose this for BUFFs and smaller crewed planes:

1) If the aircraft is unmanned, all guns are wholly under AI control

a) This allows Buff pilots to fly their planes without having to worry about air defense as the AI does it for them

b) It gives fighter pilots a bit of break because they don't have to worry about flying into hailstorm of ridiculously accurate massed BUFF return fire.

2) Allow an individual BUFF to be FULLY manned

a) More teamwork, rewarding guys who actually con(vince) a full crew into joining up

3) If the BUFF is PARTIALLY manned, all unmanned positions are under AI control

a) Again, allows a buff pilot to fly his plane without worrying about empty gun positions

b) And again, by eliminating the single gun aiming the entire formation (or bomber) fighter pilots have it a little easier.

4) Drones are ENTIRELY under AI control, their gunners act completely independently of gunners in the manned BUFF.

An additional advantage this gives to a BUFF formation is that if the bombers are attacked by multiple targets they can actually DEFEND against multiple targets, rather than having to concentrate on a single bandit.

Either that or at least do SOMETHING about the accuracy of those guns. It's insane being picked apart with surgical precision in a 400+ mph high-side pass from off the target's wing.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 03:19:01 AM by Saxman »
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Offline Karnak

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Buff guns...
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2006, 03:29:38 AM »
You have a lot of misconcpetions about the accuracy of bomber guns.

Also most of these things have been covered many times.  Try using the search function and search for posts by hitech involving bombers.
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Offline SMIDSY

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Buff guns...
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2006, 03:54:25 AM »
imagine the huge ammounts of wasted ammo that those stupid AI would use up. i dont want to shift into my tailgun and find that there is no ammo.

besides, i love luring enemy fighter noobs in close till they are about 300 yards off (they do that if you dont shoot em sometimes) and blast em in the cockpit.

Offline bagrat

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AI
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2006, 05:28:34 AM »
man if i attack a bomber gunned by AI, i could see myself already gettin picked off 2.5K away.

<-----bad luck with computerized AK
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Offline simshell

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Buff guns...
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2006, 09:07:42 AM »
bomber guns are way way way overmodeld  but they have to be because people fly solo with no escourt      

im sure if we allways had 30+ bombers it would work fine with normal model setup but with only 3 bombers most of the time they have to be overpowerd  just so people could have a chance
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Offline Hornet33

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Buff guns...
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2006, 02:51:40 PM »
I don't think it's so much the guns are overpowered as people don't know how to attack bombers correctly. If your regularly getting blasted out of the sky by bombers then maybe you should look at how your attacking them. There is nothing super uber about the bombers guns, unless your trying to tail chase a bomber to get the kill. Stupid place to be and if you get wasted you deserve it.
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Offline KTM520guy

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Buff guns...
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2006, 04:01:24 PM »
I can always tell who knows how to kill bombers and who doesn't. Those that do  send me back to the tower with a minimum of effort. Those that don't I sucker in close then light 'em up.

:)
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Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2006, 04:09:27 PM »
Again, like I said I usually go in with high-side passes around 400mph off the wings, (even with air speed I don't like low-side runs) occaisonally with slashing runs across the rear of the formation, (from 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock low or vice-versa, at an attitude that gives a shot at each bomber in turn).
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Simaril

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Buff guns...
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2006, 06:10:10 PM »
If you're getting consistantly killed, your passes arent right.

In WW2, if you attacked a bomber from the 6 o'clock position, you died. Even early, in SWP area, the lowly betty was notorious for torching fighters that attacked from behind. The surviving allied fighters learned what most MA fliers are too impatient to do -- climb above, attack from uncovered regions, take time to set up and do it again.

I am far from a AH star, but this tour I've killed 27 B-26s without dying once. Against other buffs I've succeeded though not as spectacularly. I've been killed a few times when REALLY good gunners light me up unexpectedly, but usually my deaths come when I get impatient and take a risker pass rather than climb out with lateral and vertical separation.

Best buff attack is from 2k or more above and slightly ahead, flying parallel course. Dive in at nearly vertical, target wing root FROM ABOVE (not behind), dive under, pull out and extend in front, climb, and repeat. It is VERY hard for even good gunners to hit you with this attack. Once you master it, you can efven make the good ones lose you by forcing them to rotate top turret with slight course shifts --- at high angles, slight realtive position changes require lots of turret traverse.

Side attack will work against most gunners, but the moderately good ones will compensate and kill. A little vertical shift so they have to go from top to bottom to top gun position will throw many off, but its still mroe dangerous than the vertical attack.

Its not that buff guns are overmodelled -- its that MA anti-buff tactics are undermodelled.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 06:13:41 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Bullethead

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Buff guns...
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2006, 01:29:53 AM »
AH has the 3rd different method of buff gunning I've seen so far.  They've worked like this:

AW:  Pilot couldn't man his own guns (unless he exploited a bug, hehe) so buffs had no return fire at all unless a separate player joined as a gunner.  Gunners had to join on the ground before flight, and could only leave by bailing, so it was a very boring thing to do.  Thus, most buffs lacked any defensive fire at all, which limited their number and kept them up high where they belong, instead of on the deck carpetbombing CVs and airfields, which was good for gameplay.  However, each position could have its own gunner, up to 6 in the B17.  But 1 gunner could only fire 1 gun position at once.

WB:  IIRC, all buff guns were under AI control with no player gunner capability at all.  The AI gunners were exceptionally accurate, easily able to kill or maim at 1000+ yards regardless of how you attacked.  As a result, buffs were usually avoided, and buffng was discouraged by community outcry.  This kept them out of the tactical side of things, which was good.

AH:  Pilot can man his own guns.  Can also take 1 gunner along, who can join in flight, leave without bailing, and can shoot all guns that bear at once.  And we have a rash of dweeb kamikaze NOE buffers.

Personally, I'd like to go back to the AW system to discourage dweeb buffing in general.  If you want to blow up buildings instead of fight like a man, take your unarmed buff up to 25k and bomb strats.  Most folks won't bother you because the fighting's down low and killing an unarmed buff is nothing to brag about.  OTOH, if you want to buff down in the furballs, take a bunch of gunners, but they're in for the duration and have to join before launch.

Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2006, 01:55:25 AM »
Good points, BH. To add to that, on several occaisons I've seen someone up a bomber formation (primarily B-26s) as an airborne AAA platform. WTF?! Something's not right with that picture.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline simshell

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Buff guns...
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2006, 09:14:49 AM »
i did not say they were overpowerd because i was getting killed all the time i no how to attack bombers        but i still feel there way to powerful
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Offline Saxman

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Buff guns...
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2006, 09:46:47 AM »
That's the important thing about it. Because of the way guns are modelled, Buffs are able to do things in the MA they shouldn't (and didn't) do.
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Simaril

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Buff guns...
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2006, 11:19:26 AM »
I think you guys are seriously mistaken.


First, as to being "overpowered." In the December tour, look at the kills per deaths for level bombers.  I rounded to the nearest thousand, checking model vs all countries.

Kills: 29,000
Deaths: 78,000

If this is the effect of "overpowered" guns, I'd hate to see them underpowered! Buffs are fresh meat for anyone who knows how to attack them. Their guns are not overmodelled FROM A GAME STANDPOINT -- any tougher on the bombers, and you wont see them around. As for "realism", its hard to say -- there's no doubt that buff guns killed less ini WW2 than they do in AH2, BUT in ww2 fighters didnt come from suicidal angles and speeds 90% of the time....





Second, as to game impact. Realism in AH is centered on flight and combat modelling. Beyond that, its a game -- appropriately. We DONT want realism in this part of the game.

Who wants to take 15 minutes on runway to warm up their piston engine? Who wants to get off work/school and be forced into 6 hours of boring CAP? Why should 10 robotic soldiers change ownership of an airbase? What WW2 pilot would deliberately go suicidal on a base jsut to kill a few planes? Why should a few passes from a typhoon deprive a base of bombs or troops?

And most importantly, who wants to play if yuo only get 1 life, forever? Nothing else distorts reality nearly as much as the fact that we are 1 click away from taking off again. 99% of "unrealistic" behavior comes from this, but I sure wouldnt watn to change it.

Planes and tanks are used in ways unrealistic for ww2, but perfectly logical for the game. Its the way it has to be if its going to be a game. Everywhere the game amkes realism compromises for the sake of gameplay quality, an "unrealistic" opportunity for exploitation will exist.


There are issues with buffs, but gunning isnt one of them.
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Offline hitech

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Buff guns...
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2006, 12:07:34 PM »
Simaril: You stated my thoughts on game play vs modeling very well.

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