Author Topic: Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows  (Read 1328 times)

Offline Silat

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« on: January 06, 2006, 06:18:27 PM »
My leaders told me that they were on top of this issue.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/politics/06cnd-armor.html?hp&ex=1136610000&en=cba30b2ab5b558f5&ei=5094&partner=homepage

A secret Pentagon study has found that at least 80 percent of the marines who have been killed in Iraq from wounds to their upper body could have survived if they had extra body armor. That armor has been available since 2003 but until recently the Pentagon has largely declined to supply it to troops despite calls from the field for additional protection, according to military officials.
+Silat
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Offline Gunslinger

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2006, 06:41:29 PM »
I really don't like playing this card but it has become clear to me that the NYtimes is no more reliable or less biased than NEWSMAX.

Not saying I don't care about this issue, it is real important to me considering how many deaths have been caused by IEDs in Iraq.

PS, not to excuse the issue but to a Marine it sound's normal.  Marines usually get Army "handmedowns"

EDIT2:

Ok having read the article it seems like a bunch of common sense to me.  Pentagon did a study sample of 100 troops.  Found that 80% of them could have been saved by extra torso armor.  The USMC not waiting for the data ordered more armor.

The Army not wanting to impede current production set out a study to determine what they can do.

It seems the NYtimes has a higher security clearance than me.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2006, 07:00:13 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline eagl

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2006, 06:59:12 PM »
Just playing devils-advocate, but extra armor also decreases mobility, so in some situations it could have caused more casualties.  There is more than one side to any story, but to sell newspapers and magazines, an article has to put some spin on the truth to make it interesting.

It sounds heartless, but you go to war with the equipment, tactics, and forces you have at the time.  As the lessons are learned, you adapt to the situation by improving everything from equipment to tactics.

There is no magic "armor tree", and our budget is finite.  What else would have had to be cut to try to speed up armor production?  The new generation of tactical radios?  The new up-armored humvees?  The shorter versions of the M-16 that are necessary to be able to fight from within vehicles?

War sucks and armchair quarterbacks that don't have to actually make the decisions or fight are usually worthless sacks of crap with an agenda.  As soon as they come up with the crystal ball that turns them into the perfect military strategists and long-range planners, they can run everything.  Until then, second-guessing of this type is a sure sign of someone with a personal agenda, not someone who actually gives a crap about the troops or the war.

Don't get me wrong, it's valuable to look back and dig out the lessons that need to be learned, but those jerkwads pointing fingers and trying to pin down blame for combat casualties are not doing it out of interest for the troops.  They're looking for a good story to sell papers, or trying to make someone look bad while making themselves look prescient.  Well, 20/20 hindsight makes it pretty easy to second-guess decisions other people made...

"declined to make it available"...  Right.  There are roving packs of Generals in the pentagon laughing about the suckers in the desert because they're not going to get sent the secret warehouses full of body armor we magically produced "since 2003".  The real story is more along the lines of a prototype was developed in 2003 but it cost about a million bucks per vest because there were no factories set up to produce the new materials and design.  Funding the new design took 6 months because you can't get anything approved outside of the budget cycle, and ramping up production started half a year later.

Anyone remember the story about the brand new armor that went out, that ended up failing the military QC tests?  They rushed that stuff to the field and it even saved lives, but it didn't actually meet the performance specs in the contract because it was rushed to the field.

Yea, they're laughing it up at the pentagon about how they sure fooled all those grunts in Iraq who thought their superiors gave a damn about them...  For their next trick, they're going to stop sending bullets or maybe halt the delivery of shoelaces.
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Offline Silat

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2006, 07:01:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I really don't like playing this card but it has become clear to me that the NYtimes is no more reliable or less biased than NEWSMAX.

Not saying I don't care about this issue, it is real important to me considering how many deaths have been caused by IEDs in Iraq.

PS, not to excuse the issue but to a Marine it sound's normal.  Marines usually get Army "handmedowns"


Either they care about the troops or they dont. They say they do but it seems they dont..
This admin has played the card that the dems didnt care about the troops but from what Ive seen and read over the course of this admin is that it is they that dont care...They talk a good talk though.................... They have certainly convinced their supporters that they walk on water..:)
+Silat
"The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them." — Maya Angelou
"Conservatism offers no redress for the present, and makes no preparation for the future." B. Disraeli
"All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason."

Offline Gunslinger

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2006, 07:05:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Either they care about the troops or they dont. They say they do but it seems they dont..
This admin has played the card that the dems didnt care about the troops but from what Ive seen and read over the course of this admin is that it is they that dont care...They talk a good talk though.................... They have certainly convinced their supporters that they walk on water..:)


supporters that think they walk on water are few and far between, if you meet one let me know.

Political jabs out of the way, having worked for the pentagon in various capacities for the last 10 years of my life I can say that nothing at all moves quickly.

The US alone can only manufacture so much armor.  In order to manufacter other plates they may have to slow down on breast and back plates wich could mean less overal protection rather than more wich is the intent of the new armor to begin with.

It seems that the article doesn't quite make your case and in fact throws it out the window.  If the pentagon didn't care why would they (specifically the Marines who have the smallest budget) spend $100k + to determine if more is needed?

Offline Eagler

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2006, 07:05:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Either they care about the troops or they dont. They say they do but it seems they dont..


what load of crap...

right, the admin "does not care" about our boys.. if the comment weren't so stupid, it might even be funny...
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Offline Sandman

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2006, 07:07:17 PM »
It is well that war is so terrible -- lest we should grow too fond of it. - General Robert E. Lee
sand

Offline rpm

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2006, 07:11:45 PM »
Extra body armor will prevent more injuries than less body armor?
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Offline eagl

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2006, 07:13:37 PM »
RPM

You've hit on it!  Wow, why didn't anyone else think of that?  :)

More armor = less injuries.  Damn.  A genius, you are.

(haha just foolin don't be mad)
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Offline Gunslinger

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2006, 07:23:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Extra body armor will prevent more injuries than less body armor?


Congrat's Mr. Obvious :aok

joking aside, you do have to consider production capacity.  If extra armor cuts into other production, extra armor might mean less armor in more critical areas.  


WOA new emoticon.....just saw it!
:t

Offline rpm

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2006, 07:48:00 PM »
I mean it's a stupid study. Of course more armor will prevent injuries. That is not the root of the problem. It lies in the entire process of getting the armor on the soldier.

It starts with poor planning, not having put it in standard issue to begin with. Then the procurement process has it's own tangled web of red tape to weave thru. Then testing, retesting and redesign followed by more testing. Next funding drags it's feet thru Congress with pork being flung onto the bill like dead on a cart during the plague.

Finally, it begins production and makes it into the field... 2 years later.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2006, 09:02:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
I mean it's a stupid study. Of course more armor will prevent injuries. That is not the root of the problem. It lies in the entire process of getting the armor on the soldier.

It starts with poor planning, not having put it in standard issue to begin with. Then the procurement process has it's own tangled web of red tape to weave thru. Then testing, retesting and redesign followed by more testing. Next funding drags it's feet thru Congress with pork being flung onto the bill like dead on a cart during the plague.

Finally, it begins production and makes it into the field... 2 years later.


yup that's about how it works.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2006, 09:03:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
I mean it's a stupid study. Of course more armor will prevent injuries. That is not the root of the problem. It lies in the entire process of getting the armor on the soldier.

It starts with poor planning, not having put it in standard issue to begin with. Then the procurement process has it's own tangled web of red tape to weave thru. Then testing, retesting and redesign followed by more testing. Next funding drags it's feet thru Congress with pork being flung onto the bill like dead on a cart during the plague.

Finally, it begins production and makes it into the field... 2 years later.


What was that explanation the Rodney Dangerfeild used in the movie "back to school" when he was explaining real world economics to the economics professor?


All kidding aside.
It takes time from the point where production starts to the point where distribution can be made. For a variety of reasons. Including the ones given by RPM.

The Media would have us beleive that because production on something may have started on say June 22nd 2004. It should have been made available to everyone that wants/needs one by June 23rd 2004.
It just dont work that way
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Offline Pooh21

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2006, 10:11:12 PM »
Here is the thing though with tough body armor vs. an IED, so you survive, the armor prevents major damage to your organs but without your limbs, and blind.
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Offline lasersailor184

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Extra Armor Could Have Saved Many Lives, Study Shows
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2006, 10:35:46 PM »
Well, I'd hate to throw a wrench in the works here, but I won't believe anything from the NY Times unless I see this "Secret" study.
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