Observations on 109s' revisited

[storch]

Originally posted by gatt


I'm curious to see the next european 1944-45 scenario. I mean a Defence of the Reich scenario, with high flying heavy bombers escorted by late P-51 and P-47. I'm really interested in hearing what our (porked) G-14, K-4 with the 30mm and "incredible" 190A-8 will be able to do. Better, a 1943-44 western europe scenario with new Spitfires against our uber G-6, G-14 and 190s  

pretty much spot on Gatt.  when I play in the MA I usually dedicate a fair amount of time to hunting down high alt buffs.  it is nearly impossible do in an FW190A8 unless you are considerably above them to begin with.  once they are above 24k forget about it.  you cannot effectively remain above them as any control imput leads to accellerated stalls and a corresponding loss of critical altitude.  As far as the LW is concerned the best ingame platform for killing very high buffs is the Ta152 but the overall best choice is the Bf110G.  what we have is the classic buff interceptor the luftwaffe used, the Anton is all but useless in it's historic role in AHII.  Bozon I didn't mean to attack you personally and certainly no offense was intended.  If my comment offended you please accept this as my apology.  I'm commenting on the mentality exhibited by players that gravitate to allied rides.  I could take a P47D40 easily climb it to 109gajillionK, leisurely cruise around in ultrarediculous economy cruise and loiter in predictable bomber paths, take out a complete formation with less 100 rounds per gun and go back up on my perch.  I've done many times and it's boring.  I've never tried it with the new P47N  I suppose it is even easier now.  The allied rides are way easymode it's a fact.  I would challenge you to spend a good portion of a tour in LW rides then honestly post what impressions you come away with.

[Urchin]

I spent the better part of three years in LW rides.  I've already told you my opinion, but I guess it doesn't count since it doesn't mesh with yours?

[gatt]

Urchin, with all respect ... should your reply put an end to the whole thread?

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by ghi
Yep, i talked with a friend  about AH, he plays IL2/Fb for long time, he liked the idea of huge arena with 400-500 players, He  suscribed to AH, but was disapoited.
After he played for a while ,his impresion was  the: " LW planes are ridiculos undermodeled , ", He canceled AH acount.

Try speaking to some of the HT staff who play IL2.
They'll tell you exactly what they think of the FM's for all the planes in it.

Hint - They aren't overly impressed.


The only advantage it seems to have over AH2 is the damage model.

[bozon]

No real offense taken Storch, my skin is not that thin.

I did use to fly the 109G2 quite often as a furball/base defense ride (way before the latest version). These days I only get to fly a couple of hours a week so I stick with my favorites (P47D11 for fights, Mossie for attack and spit 14 to get killed in a perk ride). I don't have time to test other planes too much.

Since the flight model of the G2 did not change, I can only complain on the forward view in the new version and I'm not sure it is very much off if at all. It turns extremely well and I felt confident to mix it with spit IXs (the 5 was another issue), also knowing I can disengage the fight. Todays with spit 16 that might be more of a problem.
Now that said, I sucked in it, but had fun. You have to remember that for a jug flyer, trying out a 109 feels like gravity was turned off.

It does have some instabilities at low speeds that are not as severe in other planes in which you'd expect it. Saying 109s "suck" in AH is not true, nor will help your case. Saying that they are better in IL2 is irrelevant (perhaps they are overmodeled there? or the rest undermodeled?). Please point exacly to their "suckage" reason or where are they undermodeled. No pilot anecdotes as one never have the full details from them. No kill statistics. No comparing to other games.

My pet plane is supposed to zoom better and dive quicker than most opposition according to stories. In AH it is a mediocre or below in zoom and the only thing you'll catch in a dive is the ground eventualy. Maybe the stories were exhagerated or MA conditions are different or AH is off. I can't tell. I can only ask the better experts here, investigate it myself or keep quite and play. I chose the last option.

Bozon

[Widewing]

Originally posted by storch
pretty much spot on Gatt.  when I play in the MA I usually dedicate a fair amount of time to hunting down high alt buffs.  it is nearly impossible do in an FW190A8 unless you are considerably above them to begin with.  once they are above 24k forget about it.  you cannot effectively remain above them as any control imput leads to accellerated stalls and a corresponding loss of critical altitude.  As far as the LW is concerned the best ingame platform for killing very high buffs is the Ta152 but the overall best choice is the Bf110G.  what we have is the classic buff interceptor the luftwaffe used, the Anton is all but useless in it's historic role in AHII.  Bozon I didn't mean to attack you personally and certainly no offense was intended.  If my comment offended you please accept this as my apology.  I'm commenting on the mentality exhibited by players that gravitate to allied rides.  I could take a P47D40 easily climb it to 109gajillionK, leisurely cruise around in ultrarediculous economy cruise and loiter in predictable bomber paths, take out a complete formation with less 100 rounds per gun and go back up on my perch.  I've done many times and it's boring.  I've never tried it with the new P47N  I suppose it is even easier now.  The allied rides are way easymode it's a fact.  I would challenge you to spend a good portion of a tour in LW rides then honestly post what impressions you come away with.

I can understand your frustration, but the issue of high altitude performance is something you need to take up with the German aircraft manufacturers.

Have you examined the performance curves for the various Focke Wulfs? Every one of them had critical altitudes no higher than 20,000 feet. This means that performance degrades above that height. Bf 109s were better suited for high alt work. Yet, none of the above were as capable as the typical American escort fighters, simply because these were engineered for high altitude performance.

Critical altitudes and speeds for some of the Allied fighters as modeled in AH2:

P-47N: 30k/476 mph (could be substituted for much lighter P-47M)
P-47D-11: 30k/431 mph
P-51B: 27.5k/446 mph
P-51D: 25k/441 mph
P-38J: 25k/419 mph
P-38L: 25k/419 mph

Luftwaffe critcial altitudes as modeled in AH2 (altitude of best speed):
I haven't tested the A-8, but expect performance to be very similar to the A-5 in general.

Fw 190D-9: 20k/426 mph
Fw 190A-5: 20k/407 mph
*Fw 190A-8: 20k/406 mph
Bf 109G-14: 21k/401 mph (should about 416 mph)
Bf 109K-4: 22.5k/452 mph
Bf 109G-6: 22k/388 mph
Bf 109G-2: 22k/402 mph

When the Luftwaffe fighters climb to 25k, their performance has begun to fall of from that seen at their critical altitudes.

Fw 190D-9: 421 mph
Fw 190A-5: 392 mph
*Fw 190A-8: 390 mph
Bf 109G-14: 395 mph
Bf 109K-4: 443 mph

There is also a corresponding drop in acceleration rate. At 25k, both P-38s accelerate faster than any of the Luftwaffe fighters. They also climb faster at 25k as well. The P-51s climb as fast as the 109K-4 above 25k, and nothing can compete with the P-47N up that high.

Now, don't misunderstand me. Among my all-time favorites are the Antons. I find these to be among the best looking fighters ever designed. I also agree that they are modeled too heavy in AH2. Likewise, I enjoy the Bf 109s, especially the F-4 and G-2. Quite frankly, I have not noticed any decrease in performance and handling of these two 109s. My testing shows that the G-14 is too slow by a significant margin (although the P-40B is worse, being at least 20 mph too slow, at 332 mph).

Historically, the Luftwaffe had a rough time with American escort fighters at high altitudes. Within that context, I expect that TOD will reflect that issue. Therefore, defending against the bombers and their escorts will require planning and coordination. Getting above the enemy will be paramount to any success. Typically, the guys flying Luftwaffe can count on getting only one pass on the bombers before the escorts are all over them.

As for me, I'll fly both sides and make the most of what I'm flying.

Let's not make this a whine-fest about the modeling of Luftwaffe fighters. In my estimation, adjusting the weights of the 190s, max speed of the G-14 and fixing the forward view of the 109s (should all be as good as the 109F-4) should satisfy any real issues.

Arguments for gondollas on the K-4 is not a real issue. Simply stated, they were removed from the planes as soon as they were delivered. Should gondollas be an option? Yes, for the MA; but history (and TOD is supposed to be historical) says you would never see them.

Give HTC some time to sort out all the data they have been sent and I'm sure they will correct those things established as needing adjustment.

My regards,

Widewing

[gatt]

Widewing,
I'm surely not an FM expert but I guess that level speeds at altitudes and even times to altitudes are not everything.
What I dont like, *compared to most other aircraft* (not only allied), is the general stability of german planes during manouvres and at altitude.
I dont think that during 1943 Luftwaffe could have done (relatively) so well with such a pig plane like our 109G-6. Or during most of 1944 with our G-14. Or during both years with our Antons.

The last gift has been the lost of the G-10 and her armament options. It is the first time I see the arena more poor after the introduction of a new variant ... no comment  

[storch]

hello widewing, thankyou for your response.  my concern isn't so much with accelleration or top speed but more with handling.  take a typical attack profile for me.  I'm above a set of B24s which are probably cruising along at 25k and doing 300+ mph.  I'm above them about 3k alt advantage in an A8 the simple split S to the left will cause the right wing to to stall and a blown pass usually results.  I understand that the LW aircraft performed best at medium altitudes but they were able to intercept bombers at 25k that is not the case in this game.  I believe that this will cause TOD to be an outright failure at worst or more likely an arcade game for the players who prefer the allied plane set.  It's a shame because it could be so much more.  Given the amount of well researched and reliable FW and LW data that crumpp has presented as gift to HTC there can be no justification for HTC's protracted silence on this important topic and therefore easily categorized by some as indifference on HTC's part.

[1K3]

i remember the NEW 109 was SO close to have its flaps fixed but HTC said they forgot to add it lol.

EDIT: i saw a graph somewhere in aircraft or bug forum that 109's flaps  can be lowerd at higher speeds

The flaps in the 109 were lowered by the wheel in the cockpit (on the left beside the seat). The other wheel is for the stab trim. The flaps could be lowered to any angle. The flaps did not have a flap position called 'combat' like on the P-51. They could be lowered 10 deg @ 800kph. This is for the E but is applicable for the other models.

[Messiah]

Originally posted by Nosara
If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that  dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.

ahh, lesson learned.

Wisest words i've heard in along time.

[Grits]

Originally posted by Nosara
If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that  dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.

ahh, lesson learned.

Yup, same thing could be said about the P-40.

[ghi]

Originally posted by storch
  The allied rides are way easymode it's a fact.  .

  I agree
 They don't seems to be modeled for the same game,
 P38s/F4Us/P47s  much heavy and huge comparing with 109s/190s, but are soo eassy to fly, more agile , handling much better loaded, they fly high Gs  upside down with bombs rockets loaded on the wings,
MA is  a childish cocktail of choices, many players are waiting for TOD, but who's going to play LW?  Poor AIs?

[DREDIOCK]

I think I have the solution.

Rather then to continue to neuter the LW rides anymore.

Or introduce any more superduper performing allied planes

Just remove the LW rides from the game entirely.
the way they are headed. might as well

[Urchin]

Well, one thing that I know is going to be different in TOD is that the bombers won't be cruising along at 25k and 300 mph.  In TOD, much like IRL, they are going to be using the protection of other bombers... so they will be cruising along at ~180 mph at 25k.  This will make it much simpler for even the "under modelled and nerfed" LW fighters to intercept the bombers, much like real life.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by Urchin
Well, one thing that I know is going to be different in TOD is that the bombers won't be cruising along at 25k and 300 mph.  In TOD, much like IRL, they are going to be using the protection of other bombers... so they will be cruising along at ~180 mph at 25k.  This will make it much simpler for even the "under modelled and nerfed" LW fighters to intercept the bombers, much like real life.

This is true, but I'm a little bit skurred of attacking enormous formations of buffs with a gazillion AI-controlled lazer taggers tracking me. No good can come of that...