Author Topic: Observations on 109s' revisited  (Read 3027 times)

Offline Apar

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2006, 01:19:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
This is true, but I'm a little bit skurred of attacking enormous formations of buffs with a gazillion AI-controlled lazer taggers tracking me. No good can come of that...


Exactly!

Offline DREDIOCK

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2006, 06:31:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wetrat
This is true, but I'm a little bit skurred of attacking enormous formations of buffs with a gazillion AI-controlled lazer taggers tracking me. No good can come of that...


First ya gotta be able to see em to attack em.

Seeing them while attacking them is another problem LOL
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Offline Widewing

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2006, 06:38:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
hello widewing, thankyou for your response.  my concern isn't so much with accelleration or top speed but more with handling.  take a typical attack profile for me.  I'm above a set of B24s which are probably cruising along at 25k and doing 300+ mph.  I'm above them about 3k alt advantage in an A8 the simple split S to the left will cause the right wing to to stall and a blown pass usually results.  I understand that the LW aircraft performed best at medium altitudes but they were able to intercept bombers at 25k that is not the case in this game.  I believe that this will cause TOD to be an outright failure at worst or more likely an arcade game for the players who prefer the allied plane set.  It's a shame because it could be so much more.  Given the amount of well researched and reliable FW and LW data that crumpp has presented as gift to HTC there can be no justification for HTC's protracted silence on this important topic and therefore easily categorized by some as indifference on HTC's part.


You will absolutely have problems intercepting heavy bombers running at full throttle, especially at 25k. Antons were piggish up high, with a heavy wingloading and damn little reserve power. Then again, the higher you fly, the closer your max speed creeps towards stall speed. Take note of your indicated airspeed at 25k. Accelerated stalls are a common problem up high. Planes with evil stall behavior can be a real handful. Other aircraft, like the P-47s and P-51s are just coming up on their critical altitude, and have plenty of reserve power. Enough to allow them to be 40 to 50 mph faster than the 190A types at 25,000 feet. That's a significant difference. 109s suffer to a lesser degree, but they will still suffer. Especially the G-6 and G-14, which simply don't have the suds to compete with the P-51s up that high. The G-6 can only manage about 365 mph up where the P-51D can attain better than 440 mph. Anyway you slice it, that's a big disadvantage. Without the power to sustain speed while maneuvering, the 190A and 109Gs will scrub off E and find themselves fighting off accelerated stalls, even with relatively moderate increases in AoA.

In TOD we should see the bombers flying at normal cruise power, making overtaking easier. However, Luftwaffe drivers are still going to have to deal with escorts that are much faster and handle better (due to their reserve of power).

Only the 109K-4 has enough power to compete with the Mustangs at 25k. The Dora is marginal at 25,000 feet, and in the same boat as the Antons if fights much higher than that.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Karnak

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2006, 07:07:16 PM »
In ToD I will fly the following, depending on the setup:

USA vs Germany: Germany  (Bf109s and Fw190s)
UK vs Germany: UK (Mossies)
USSR vs Germany: Germany (Bf109s and Fw190s)
USA vs Japan: Japan (fighters)
UK vs Japan: Both probably. (fighters)


As the first setup will be USA vs Germany, I will start as German.
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Offline gatt

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2006, 03:13:29 AM »
Ah, lets see how (un)realistic will be TOD's OTTO (i.e. AI gunners). I mean, will it fire from every gunner position, thru fuselage(s) and against other bombers? I hope not :huh

IMO, OTTO should have his skill/precision increased togheter with the increase of the player overall skill/score/stat/#missions. This could simulate the experience increase of a bomber combat crew after some missions.
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Offline Kweassa

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2006, 06:03:56 AM »
Come to think of it, my complaints aren't that the 109s or 190s are under represented, but rather some historical oppositions are over-represented such as the P-47s or P-51s, Typhoons, P-38s and etc.. These things are ridiculously stable as a fighter.

 True, some of them like the P-38 or the P-51 has horrid spins when it is pushed too far over the envelope, but really, with all that flaps flogging around who in the world stalls out those planes anyway? At least those planes can be pushed so hard until a simple stall develops into a dangerous spin.

 The 109s? They just flutter, shake, and destabilize at the roll axis like someone going into a seizure, the moment it reaches over the envelope. It refuses any kind of further inputs and requires the pilot to just stop everything they are doing at the moment. Stop turning, stop pulling, just level out, stay still until fully stabilized, and then do something, which by that time the enemy plane has already turned 1/2 of a circle and is closing behind your rear.

 I fly a P-47 or a P-51, enter a high-yoyo, feel the plane stalling out, then I can kick a bit of rudder, lower a notch of flap, and correct my plane position easily enough to 'shift' the stalling momentum downwards to the descending part of the yoyo. Pretty easy.

 I do that in a 109, the plane feels a stall, it starts wobbling on the roll axis. I have to go neutral stick, neutral rudder, do nothing and wait for a moment until the plane fully stabilizes, before attempting anything. A pilot even slight tries to maintain the stick pressure, kick more rudder, correct the wobbling momentum, etc etc.. and bam! The plane stalls out. Gee, it's no wonder the 109s never go into fatal spins like the P-38s or P-51s - they can't be pushed up to that point in the first place.

 Provided I'm in an equal situation with an equal amount of E advantage over - let's say - an La-7, I actually have a better chance to outmaneuver La-7s in P-47s or P-51s (planes I almost never fly), than any kind of Bf109 (been flying for over five years). I see a low La-7 in a P-51 or a P-47, I jump down. The enemy turns, I lower flaps, kick rudder, go into a E-killing maneuver and a series of rolls and scissors and bam, I land behind the La-7. However, in a 109, the same situation, I see a low La-7, jump him, he turns, I go into a yo-yo, and then we go around and around and around and around, until I deprive the La-7 of every last drop of E he's got left - and only then, can I land behind him - which by that time someone else steals the kill I worked my prettythang off, or some other enemy fighter blows me out of the sky.

 After the series of turn radius tests I've got no beef with the pure turning radius of these planes. My beef is the stability. Some planes are just way too stable. The P-38 is understandable, since it hasn't got any torque. But I am doubtful if the P-51 was such a decisively superiorly forgiving plane under such low-speed stall fighting conditions. Nor such a heavy and large P-47 can go flopping around so stably, dragging that fat belly across the horizon rolling and swinging its tail about into such series of wingovers to outamaneuver such planes.

Offline gatt

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2006, 07:20:59 AM »
Kweassa, I totally agree.
Ever been brutally outlooped (in a 109K-4) by a P-47N *low and slow* on the deck?  Was that monster so easy to manoeuver?
Same thing for the Bf-110G: I've seen some of them outlooping and generally outmanoeuvering light fighters in slow and low close dogfights. Weird, isnt it?
Is AH2 going to rewrite the history of WW2 air combat?
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storch

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2006, 07:41:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gatt
Kweassa, I totally agree.
Ever been brutally outlooped (in a 109K-4) by a P-47N *low and slow* on the deck?  Was that monster so easy to manoeuver?
Same thing for the Bf-110G: I've seen some of them outlooping and generally outmanoeuvering light fighters in slow and low close dogfights. Weird, isnt it?
Is AH2 going to rewrite the history of WW2 air combat?
have you ever read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson and Martin Caidin?  clearly the P47 outclimbed the spitfire outran the Me262 out altituded the SR71 and could easily be parallel parked in front of the Park Hotel on the corso vittorio emmanuele at 1600 hrs friday afternoon.  aamazing aircraft, really.

Offline Kweassa

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2006, 10:10:48 AM »
Quote
Ever been brutally outlooped (in a 109K-4) by a P-47N *low and slow* on the deck? Was that monster so easy to manoeuver?


 LOL you kidding me?

 I've been outturned by Typhoons on deck in a Bf109F-4. A flat turn contest, and then the wobbling comes, pilot is forced to release all pressure on stick, Typhoon creeps up behind during that time and bam. Been outturned by P-47s with all kinds of Gustavs, outlooped, outzoomed.. you name it.

 Zillions of situations where I'd say to myself, "Gee, only if my plane could pitch up that last 30 degrees at 150mph (hey, it's not even stall speed yet!) and manage a total 90d vertical...", but too bad this plane starts wobbling at 60 degrees pitch, where any more stick input just flips it over to the backside. Woops, there's that USAAF plane, flaps kicking out, speed stable behind me, and guess what - that plane can nose up to get the gun solution.

 What do they attach to those flaps? A Harrier Jump/jet vector thrust nozzle? Flaps alone make a plane that's two tons heavier than mine outloop it at a stall fight?

 ...

 Okay.. deep breath... rant mode off.. *Hoo Haa*


 
 Sure, there are methods to win with a 109. Fly a hybrid style, fly very conservatively, and fly around and spend 50% of fuel just trying to outclimb everything that's in sight, since obviously that much of E advantage is the only thing that can help it actually maneuver worthwhile.

 Especially when for some reason these planes are modelled with historically appropriate cockpit frame thickness, and for another obscure reason those opposition planes are modelled with paper thin cockpit frames, I need that much more E to wiggle my plane around just to see outside. Hey, OK, I got no complaints with the 109/190 cockpit frames. Reasonable, superb modelling, very realistic and immersive. But how's anyone gonna explain the cardboard thickness P-51 frames? Man, at least IL-2 with that frickin restrictive head positions models ALL cockpit frame bars as thick as perceived without any exceptions.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 10:17:23 AM by Kweassa »

Offline bozon

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2006, 11:06:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Nor such a heavy and large P-47 can go flopping around so stably, dragging that fat belly across the horizon rolling and swinging its tail about into such series of wingovers to outamaneuver such planes.

I'm less familiar with other planes but the P47 had forgiving handeling. Being fat and heavy also mean you don't flop as easily but mush into the stall instead (like stalling a bomber). Big elliptical wings help too in high AoA.

Johnson also said that in a quick reversal (as in scissors) the P47 would mush into the turn and loose a lot of speed, but if added some vertial displacement would keep E a lot better. I think it works that way in AH as well.

Quote
ave you ever read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson and Martin Caidin? clearly the P47 outclimbed the spitfire outran the Me262 out altituded the SR71 and could easily be parallel parked in front of the Park Hotel on the corso vittorio emmanuele at 1600 hrs friday afternoon. aamazing aircraft, really.

Well, Johnsons jug was boosted to 72" (like our N with wep for example). With such crazy boosting what you get is a Razorback with performance damn near P47M (only lighter and  more aerodynamic, close to XP47J) in an early 44 bird. I would not be suprised if it equaled or out climbed spit9s on some conditions.

Bozon
« Last Edit: January 10, 2006, 11:10:07 AM by bozon »
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

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Offline gofaster

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2006, 12:47:23 PM »
Maybe its just me, but gondolas seem to help the G-14's wobble issues, and they give a nice punch at close quarters.  The G6 is best flown without them, though.  I think engine torque has something to do with it.

Offline gatt

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2006, 12:56:09 PM »
Kweassa, c'mon another deeeep breath, its ok, its ok now, dont worry, put that shotgun down .... phewwww ...  ;)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline gatt

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2006, 01:03:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
have you ever read "Thunderbolt" by Robert Johnson and Martin Caidin?  clearly the P47 outclimbed the spitfire outran the Me262 out altituded the SR71 and could easily be parallel parked in front of the Park Hotel on the corso vittorio emmanuele at 1600 hrs friday afternoon.  aamazing aircraft, really.


Hum, Corso Vittorio Emanuele ... the one in Milan or in Rome? :)
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline DoctorYO

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2006, 11:36:14 AM »
Power your engine down to 85-90 percent instead of weping thru the turn and your floundering rate will go down a bunch.. power up when you can..(same technique as the torque heavy spit14)

Use that in the 109 I think you will appreciate the results...  (only the heavy powered 109's, g2 and f4 go full bore as needed..)

Though i do have to agree the Allied fighters shure seem superior to luftwaffe planes..  the views being the latest maligning..

My suggestion to those who fly luftwaffe..  out fly the enemy..  on equal footing your at the disadvantage..  but then again most conflicts always have supposed leaders and underdogs.  

Fly a zeke for a tour and then go back to luftwabbling..  you will have a appreciation of the 109, and most likely use some of that zeke know how to make you a better pilot.. (the 109f feels like a superplane after getting your sorties in a zeke..)



DoctorYo

storch

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Observations on 109s' revisited
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2006, 12:31:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gatt
Hum, Corso Vittorio Emanuele ... the one in Milan or in Rome? :)
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