Observations on 109s' revisited

[Hajo]

Decided as I said before to compare aircraft in the MA against other aircraft in Combat.  Sorties were not the same.  Would turn fight, BnZ in high alt and on the deck fights.  Flew the K4 for about 75% of tour 71.

Findings as follow:

Tour 71   K4           150 kills      53 deaths

Tour 72   P51D        36 kills      10 deaths

Tour 72 SpitMkVII   26 kills      4 deaths

Again....fights were a mix of multi plane furballing 2 on 2 and a few great 1 on 1s.  For the 51D and SpitMkVIII  the sorties were flown on Thursday and Friday this week.

I am by no means a hot shot pilot.  But in comparison of the three aircraft listed above the K4 needed attention at all times.  It was a chore to fly in combat.  It's main virtue was it's climb rate.  If I was clear of higher alt cons I could grab away from trouble.  If I was in a multiplane furball as a wingman I wasn't of much help because of the stall speed and fighting to keep the wings level at low alts trying to cover my wingies 6 and also saddeling up onto an enemy aircraft.  Has good speed and with wep can even get you away from low level La7s on the deck.  But for gods sake don't turn.  Bleeds E very quickly in any kind of turn and if it is held to long you're in the tower.  There is no low speed handling.

P51D.  Fast......accelerates slowly level but once it gets going it's a great aircraft.  Turns well....not great and zooms well.  The ability to deploy flaps is a big plus in any situation.  Flaps dropped a notch at around 400mph makes it a fine plane to use making high speed reversals.  Climb rate is good....not great but you can coax 3K/min out of it when you are fairly low.  Smooth as silk and it's speed can get you out of trouble if flown correctly. Marginal low speed handling ability.

Now...the SpitMkVIII.....Cripes it's hard to stall at 85mph!  It climbs at 3500ft/min from the get go.  Speed is fair but not great and it's handling in the vertical and horizontal is outstanding.  Rate of turn is very good and the two Hispanos make it a very formidable weapon.  Cripes the MarkVIII made a dweeb like me look great!  I could hardly do anything wrong.  It floats and retains E better then most aircraft in turns and makes reversals a snap.  Hard to stall at 85mph..guess low speed handling is good LOL.

Conclusion:  How in the heck did the LW down that many good aircraft flying the washing machines like the 109, 190, and 110? The disparity in quality aircraft was huge. The LW would have no chance at all with even numbers let alone being outnumbered greatly during the last half of the war.  They must've been superb pilots.

[tikky]

heh

I think IL-2 Forgotten Battles/Pacific fighters simulates planes much better.  

In IL-2, 109s and 190s are good enough that allied planes there such as P51s, spits, and LALAs are having hard time.  To kill german planes there you will need MORE allied plane to go up against them.

Heh if IL-2/pacific fighters people try to play this game, they'll LAUGH at how aces high model their P-51s, SPITS, and LALAs lol!

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by tikky
heh

I think IL-2 Forgotten Battles simulates planes much better.  

In IL-2, 109s and 190s are good enough that allied planes there such as P51s, spits, and LALAs are having hard time.  To kill german planes there you will need MORE allied plane to go up against them.

Heh if IL-2 people try to play this game, they'll LAUGH at how aces high model their P-51s, SPITS, and LALAs lol!

IL-2 people do play here, and they play here very often, also you hardly ever see anyone laughing.

then again WHO CARES.............but the people on this board that will be LAUGHING, will be LAUGHING at your comment

as for knowing what a real 190 or 109 or 110 actually flew like, compared to how Aces High does it verses IL-2 FB, are you in the know? do you have the proof and cridentials to say what is right and what isn't?

I did not know you was an expert on the coading of these games....

this isn't meant as a flame, tikky, but as a question of "How do you know if 1 is right verses the other"?

[gatt]

Well, Tikky's laughing at AH2 is too much. However, it is difficult to admit that there isnt something weird in the handling of the 109s and 190s after trying those "trails planes" like the P-51Ds, P-47D and the Spitfires. I'm not talking about climb times and max speed at altitudes. I'm talking about stability, stall, compression and so on.

AH2's german a/c are soo poor in general performance and need so much training in them that you cannot really understand how they behaved so well during the war.

Yesterday, I was reading an article (Flight Journal, special issue winter 2005) about a mock dogfight between a restored/rebuilt G-10 (Black 2) and a P-51D (Big Beautiful Doll, WZ-I):

I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time - particularly in a close, hard turning, low speed dogfight. It will definitely out maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight becouse its roll rate and slow speed characteristics are much better. - Mark Hanna

Does it look like our 109G?

[Kweassa]

Does it look like our 109G?

 Unfortunately, no.

I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time - particularly in a close, hard turning, low speed dogfight. It will definitely out maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight becouse its roll rate and slow speed characteristics are much better. - Mark Hanna

 Not in AH.

 Or at least, not "definately out maneuver" - more like 'strainingly outmaneuver', as the 109 pilot will have to struggle harder to keep his plane under control, and probably would have to utilize a lot of the E-grabbing maneuvers instead of just pure slow-speed turning/rolling maneuvers. Only then will the 109 decisively gain an advantage big enough to gain a shooting solution.

 In AH2, I think it's rather more accurate to say that the P-51s or other Allied fighters give 109 a hard time, rather than being vice versa.

[wrag]

Originally posted by gatt
Well, Tikky's laughing at AH2 is too much. However, it is difficult to admit that there isnt something weird in the handling of the 109s and 190s after trying those "trails planes" like the P-51Ds, P-47D and the Spitfires. I'm not talking about climb times and max speed at altitudes. I'm talking about stability, stall, compression and so on.

AH2's german a/c are soo poor in general performance and need so much training in them that you cannot really understand how they behaved so well during the war.

Yesterday, I was reading an article (Flight Journal, special issue winter 2005) about a mock dogfight between a restored/rebuilt G-10 (Black 2) and a P-51D (Big Beautiful Doll, WZ-I):

Does it look like our 109G?

I read the same article and referred HTC to it.  don't think it will do much but......

[storch]

gentlemen, there is no way that any axis rides will be modeled at 100% fidelity to the data.  it would cost HTC business. according to crumpp and others who have thoroughly researched this issue dispassionately the HTC modelling on axis rides is roughly 97% of available and reliably published data while the allied rides are at roughly 103%.  all fall within a reasonable +- 3% margin of error which is acceptable.  as it is the axis planes are hard enough on the easymoders.  I would say we should let it go but not only is this horse dead, it's been processed into other products. quit beating it.

[gatt]

Originally posted by storch
gentlemen (snip) not only is this horse dead, it's been processed into other products

Nice way to describe it Well, lets remind this stinking dead horse to them once in a while or soon, patch after patch, we'll find ourselves driving ("mutatis mutandis", that is) a bicycle against a tank

[Urchin]

Originally posted by Hajo

Conclusion:  How in the heck did the LW down that many good aircraft flying the washing machines like the 109, 190, and 110? The disparity in quality aircraft was huge. The LW would have no chance at all with even numbers let alone being outnumbered greatly during the last half of the war.  They must've been superb pilots.

I get tired of saying this, actually....

I think people have the wrong idea about what made a good WW2 fighter "good".  

When you are going to actually die when you lose a fight, and you get caught at a disadvantage.. you don't stick around.  YOU RUN.  YOU LEAVE.  YOU COME BACK AND "FIGHT" ANOTHER DAY.

That is how WW2 pilots fought.  They didn't try to make their 109K's outfight a Spitfire when they blew a bounce, or when they got bounced.  They just left.

But that is a boring way to play when you don't actually die when you lose, and you can turn around and take off in a brand new shiny plane.  So people try to force their planes to do stuff they weren't designed to do, and they fail.  

Then they take off in a Spitfire, and tear up other Spitfires in a fight, and think to themselves "Man, if I can kill Spitfires in a Spitfire, why can't I kill them in a 109?  This plane must be porked!!".

It isn't porked.  The real life "uberaces" didn't fight either.

[Nosara]

If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that  dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.

ahh, lesson learned.

[wetrat]

Originally posted by Nosara
If I see a 109 ready to dogfight its...
1- a dweeb that  dosnt know better.
2- someone Id best not mess with.

ahh, lesson learned.

quite accurate there

And Urchin got it right... the real LW aces (well, most of them) didn't dogfight unless they had to. Some of them did (read The Blonde Knight), but plenty more were "cherry picking sissies." The most notable "cherry picking sissy" being Hartmann. In his book (The Blonde Knight), he says several times that he avoided dogfights as much as possible. Avoiding fights and cherry picking are two things our AH 109's can do superbly

[Eagler]

it's an ammo thing also...

I do not believe the damage some planes do with one ping while other planes cannot do with numerous hits is historically accurate....

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by storch
gentlemen, there is no way that any axis rides will be modeled at 100% fidelity to the data.  it would cost HTC business. according to crumpp and others who have thoroughly researched this issue dispassionately the HTC modelling on axis rides is roughly 97% of available and reliably published data while the allied rides are at roughly 103%.  all fall within a reasonable +- 3% margin of error which is acceptable.  as it is the axis planes are hard enough on the easymoders.  I would say we should let it go but not only is this horse dead, it's been processed into other products. quit beating it.

Unfortunately because its a dead horse is exactly why I dont have great faith in TOD as much as I would really like to

Really no disrespect ment to HTC but without balanced play and planes that you can see out of, manuver in and worth flying in the bottom line is you just arent going to get that many people willing to fly LW planes.

So what are they gonna do have AI axis planes to make up the difference in numbers?

dont get me wrong I hope TOD is a huge success because I think the game is in need of something different.

I just dont see it happening with the way the LW planes are being done down.

Thats just my opinion

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Eagler
it's an ammo thing also...

I do not believe the damage some planes do with one ping while other planes cannot do with numerous hits is historically accurate....

I look at it this way.
Historically and in reality a great number of planes not only survived but managed to come home with tremendous damage and hits taken.
And yet many other planes went down not from any great number of hits from large ordinance but from a single small calibre bullet to the pilots head

Its not alwas how many hits a plane takes as much as it is WHERE those hits land

[ghi]

Originally posted by tikky
heh



Heh if IL-2/pacific fighters people try to play this game, they'll LAUGH at how aces high model their P-51s, SPITS, and LALAs lol!

 Yep, i talked with a friend  about AH, he plays IL2/Fb for long time, he liked the idea of huge arena with 400-500 players, He  suscribed to AH, but was disapoited.
After he played for a while ,his impresion was  the: " LW planes are ridiculos undermodeled , ", He canceled AH acount.