Author Topic: Civil liberities at risk. (Read 1888 times)

2Slow · « **on:** January 15, 2006, 11:41:44 AM »

The NSA event concerns me. The Patriot Act worries me. The two items together, frighten me. I think the quotes I have included below illuminate my concerns.

“the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946

"Those who would sacrifice a little Liberty for more Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety and will have none." Ben Franklin

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in guise of fighting a foreign enemy." James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the rights of the people by the gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

I continue to hear “We are at War” and this justifies some abridgement of civil liberties. What war? Did I miss it? I have searched the Congressional records and reviewed the President’s addresses to the joint sessions of Congress. I cannot find a request for or a declaration of war.

Mind you, I do think there is a matter requiring a “War effort” to irradiate it. This matter is the elimination of the Radical Islamic Pirates (RIP). I think the war we are in is more akin to the struggle that defeated the pirates of the Golden Age of Piracy. Are the RIP’s pirates? I think so. They operate in much the same manner. They have extorted protection fees from several nations. Other nations have given them safe haven. The RIP’s have successfully hidden their true nature as pirates by cloaking themselves in religious zealotry.

We can only hope that this current campaign against piracy goes as well the one in the 17th century. I pray that our civil liberties survive it as well.

“As the end of the Seventeenth Century approached, peace came to most of Europe. Privateers found themselves without jobs, as did many naval seamen. This “golden age” saw the greatest upswing in piracy ever. Unlike their predecessors, the buccaneers, these pirates preyed on merchant ships rather than Spanish galleons laden with gold and silver. Most prowled the Caribbean and Atlantic coast of North America, but some plied their trade off the West Coast of Africa and in the Indian Ocean.
The height of plundering lasted about a decade from 1715-1725. Most pirates were English (35%), but other nationalities were also represented: colonials from America-25%, colonials from the West Indies-20%, Scots-10%, Welsh-8%, and Swedish/Dutch/French/Spanish-2%. “ The Golden Age of Piracy, By Cindy Vallar

Pooh21 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2006, 12:43:41 PM »

Did Echelon and Carnivore concern you just as much, I mean you didnt have to be a arab terr for those programs to spy on you.

nirvana · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2006, 01:28:40 PM »

The U.S. government scares me, so i'm starting to build a fallout shelter and I have premade 20 aluminum foil hats "just in case".

2Slow · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2006, 01:30:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pooh21
Did Echelon and Carnivore concern you just as much, I mean you didnt have to be a arab terr for those programs to spy on you.

I was unaware of these.

The FBI planned to use Carnivore for specific reasons. Particularly, the agency would request a court order to use Carnivore when a person was suspected of:
Terrorism
Child pornography/exploitation
Espionage
Information warfare
Fraud

Echelon - This is a secret network rumored to be under development by the National Security Agency (NSA), supposedly designed to detect and capture packets crossing international borders that contain certain keywords, such as "bomb" or "assassination."

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/carnivore4.htm

I knew/suspected that the NSA monitored communications outside of the U.S. borders. Incomming or outgoing message/voice communications are fair game IMO.

Carnivore, with a search warrant, sounds reasonable to me. However, the unwarrented or carte blanc use of it is scary.

All of this "secret" stuff is subject to abuse.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2006, 01:42:23 PM »

what scares me more is when people sacrifice national security for political gain. That tells me they care more about being in power than they do anything else.

Flatbar · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:05:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gunslinger
what scares me more is when people sacrifice national security for political gain. That tells me they care more about being in power than they do anything else.

Would you trust a Dem using this type of surveillance, unchecked and w/o warrents, when they say that they aren't using it to spy on politcal opponents? Would you trust a possible President Hillary Clinton to tell the truth abouit who and why they are spying?

I don't trust Bush doing it and I doubt if you would trust a Dem President doing it, especially a Pres. Clinton.

The checks are there for a very good reason and shouldn't be abandoned.

LePaul · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:07:39 PM »

You know when the 9/11 panel gave its conclusions, the government was scolded for not doing enough.

When they do, they are scolded yet again.

So precisely what would you prefer?

Gunslinger · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:14:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Flatbar
Would you trust a Dem using this type of surveillance, unchecked and w/o warrents, when they say that they aren't using it to spy on politcal opponents? Would you trust a possible President Hillary Clinton to tell the truth abouit who and why they are spying?

I don't trust Bush doing it and I doubt if you would trust a Dem President doing it, especially a Pres. Clinton.

The checks are there for a very good reason and shouldn't be abandoned.

I would trust a Dem to use it appropriately (even though they just as bad about privacy as the rest of them SEE: Credit reports)

I just wouldnt trust a dem with national security period. Instead of debating the issue and working with the administration they would rather go public with a top secret program who's legality has yet to be proven thwarting national security efforts and alerting our enemys. It seems most democrats (not all) would rather sacrifice national security for the sake of political gain. I see a greater threat from terrorists here and abroad then my civil rights being violated.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:15:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by LePaul
You know when the 9/11 panel gave its conclusions, the government was scolded for not doing enough.

When they do, they are scolded yet again.

So precisely what would you prefer?

good point.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:38:55 PM »

Flatbar and gun, you guys are generalizing everyone. There are people on both sides of the fence I wouldn't trust with a pointed stick. Then again, there are people on both sides I would trust.

While I don't like it, I would only prefer it to be used in times of great crisis (I.E. War on Terrorism). I don't trust anyone to do it, but I know it will be done and I will not freak out about it.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2006, 02:46:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Flatbar and gun, you guys are generalizing everyone. There are people on both sides of the fence I wouldn't trust with a pointed stick. Then again, there are people on both sides I would trust.

While I don't like it, I would only prefer it to be used in times of great crisis (I.E. War on Terrorism). I don't trust anyone to do it, but I know it will be done and I will not freak out about it.

Yes I know I'm speaking in General. I wouldn't want this program or several provisions of the patriot act to go on for ever but LePaul makes a good point that the 9/11 panel made sudgestions and then the dems scream and cry when they are enacted for political gain.

When you have somone like Howard Dean Running the party and several members saying we are going to lose and it's inevitable I have come to the conclusion that I cannot trust my country's national deffense and security to the party of defeat (again a generality but one of merit considering who's leading them) Some of you that lean left of center can flame me for my opinions all you want but they are just that, my opinions. I'm not being harsh or bashing the Dems I'm just calling it like I see it.

1K3 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2006, 03:00:22 PM »

US gov is a Childs Play compare to Peoples Republic of China when it comes to controlling the masses (err Orwellian "1984" style lol)

Hangtime · « **Reply #12 on:** January 15, 2006, 03:08:57 PM »

"times of great crisis"

Enh?

What a buncha self-serving lip flapping BS.. nothing personal intended; just an observation on the growing complacency with that and other terminology that equates to excuses for trampling into history the legacy of privacy and protection of personal liberty that being an American once entailed.

If it's REALLY a war, where's the fleets? The air armada? The long convoys? The Million Man Army? The industrial might and social purpose of a nation challenged by an impacable evil that stalks the free people of the world?

No; hell no.. there's no social commitment. No enraged populace bent on avenging the Pearl Harbor of our times. No military/industrial commitment. No war-footing. Just BS takling points and media flap.. and our kids picked off piecemeal, without a national commitment to REALLY fight a war.

Yer all being suckered... we're paying lip service to the polity of 'war on terror' with the commitment and attention span to the process of winning it of a 12 year old in a video game room.

"stick in another quarter.. yer up to level 4!"

When we were attacked in 1941 we had dick-all for an army, a shattered navy and an air force that was pitiful. JUST THREE YEARS LATER we'd become not only the Arsenal of Democracy, but the very embodiment of a 'Super Power'.

Three years after 9/11 we got WHAT?

Duped.

That's it.. just 'Duped'.

Suckers.

2Slow · « **Reply #13 on:** January 15, 2006, 03:37:36 PM »

Just a reminder,

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in guise of fighting a foreign enemy." James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

This is what I fear. The President compared the need and effort of the WOT (War on Terror) with the WOD (War on Drugs). I remember when President Johnson declared the WOD. In case you havn't noticed, we have not "won" it yet.

No amount of secret spying, usurption of civil liberties, can provide invulnerable safety and security. The advantage is always with the side on the offense.

What all the secret stuff and delution of civil liberties can provide is slow death to democracy and the birth of a Orwellian tryranny.

We now have "thought police" provisions. Denounce someone as a RIP and someone will be checking their library records.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #14 on:** January 15, 2006, 03:53:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2Slow
Just a reminder,

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in guise of fighting a foreign enemy." James Madison, fourth US president (1751-1836)

This is what I fear. The President compared the need and effort of the WOT (War on Terror) with the WOD (War on Drugs). I remember when President Johnson declared the WOD. In case you havn't noticed, we have not "won" it yet.

No amount of secret spying, usurption of civil liberties, can provide invulnerable safety and security. The advantage is always with the side on the offense.

What all the secret stuff and delution of civil liberties can provide is slow death to democracy and the birth of a Orwellian tryranny.

We now have "thought police" provisions. Denounce someone as a RIP and someone will be checking their library records.

Just playing devils advocate here but do you think spying should be done publicly with our means and methods known by everyone to include our enemies?

Did you know that there were several reports of arab groups buying up disposable cell phones by the dozens after Dec. 15th in many states.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/print?id=1499905

I don't know who said this but civil rights and our constitution are only good when applied to a moral and just people......