Yet Another Reason to Repeal The Patriot Act

[Seagoon]

Hi Rolex,

Originally posted by Rolex
Well, Seagoon, first thing would be to recognize that there is not an international Jihad as you have conjured in your mind. There are terrorists, and they should be investigated and brought before courts of law using cooperative efforts between governments.

Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden's followers should be pursued with vigor, instead of having another few thousand Americans killed and ten thousand injured pursuing... whatever it is being pursued in Iraq. Especially since no one in Iraq, or connected to Iraq, has ever commited a terrorist act against the US. But instead, terrorists are being created daily from the family and friends of the (insert a number: 10,000? 20,000? 30,000? 40,000?) Iraqis killed during the past two years.

How about fixing the intelligence services of the US? There's a good a start. The CIA and FBI directors and the next 2 levels below should have been fired for cause - gross dereliction of duty by not sharing information and acting in the interests of their bosses (the American people), instead, acting in the childish interest of their little empires and themselves.

All the tools and laws are available. Only finding the right people to do the jobs with renewed purpose is necessary.

Thanks, before I respond to this, I want to make sure I understand exactly what you are saying rather than simply respond to a strawman. So would the following assessment be accurate?

In terms of philosophy: The US must understand that there is no underlying connection between the terrorists operating under the Muslim brotherhood umbrella and no real connection between the people who call themselves Jihadis and Islam. There is also no connection between the Saudis exporting Wahhabi Islam and funding Mosques and study centers worldwide, what the Imams preach, and the surge in the number of terror cells in areas where these mosques are established.

If we leave Iraq and X (insert other middle eastern countries here) and then catch the existing terrorists and put them on trial the war will be over. Operations in Europe and the USA will cease once we have done that. Also, contrary to current reports, and what European intel services have gleaned, Zarqawi is not planning operations in Europe and America from Iraq.

Current security measures are excessive and must be returned to pre-9/11 levels as soon as possible.

In Terms of Application:
1) America must withdraw from Iraq immediately
2) The pursuit of terrorists must be demilitarized and turned over to law enforcement officials
3) The Patriot Act and all similar post 9/11 provisions must be repealed immediately
4) Actions based on the assumption of a connection between Islamic terrorism and Islam must cease immediately
5) The current intel and law enforcement agency heads must be fired
6) Agencies should be encouraged to work together, unless sharing information would violate the laws that existed prior to 9/11

Have I left anything out?

Basically then, you are saying we must return to the situation that prevailed in the 1990s?

- SEAGOON

[Rolex]

No, Seagoon. You embellished too much on your own. Put that coffee cup down!

It's 2:30 a.m. here, so I'll be brief. And I do not engage in strawmen. I'm allergic to straw. By the way, you forgot to answer the question about how many plotting truck drivers were uncovered. Was it one? Two? A hundred? What was the catalyst or trigger number?

The plots that were uncovered were all before the new rules requiring all truck drivers to have background investigations. The NSA did its job, using the tools at its disposal, to uncover Lyman Faris. Is this starting to make sense now?

Too tired; going to sleep.

[Stringer]

I think Seagoon is onto something with this profiling thing.

According to his strawman, Christians should be profiled and searched for pipe bombs since they are the ones that bomb clinics.  And are responsible for terror attacks on our OWN soil against American Citizens, which have resulted in the deaths of AMERICAN CITIZENS!

We'll start with your congregation, Seagoon.  I mean, it's not a problem for your congregation to give up some of it's liberties to make American Citizens safer from pipe bomb attacks, which have happened with more frequency than Islamic attacks on our soil.

BTW, I'm a christian, so don't waste your time thinking I'm not a believer in God.

I like your strawman now.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Eagler
let us know when we are half as pitiful as Canada

then we will start worrying

Why dont you throw in a "your Mother wears combat boots" as well, that would be a real good one

shamus

[JTs]

dumped the hazmat endorsment to.  could'nt afford the 5 million insurance and to keep track of the paper work for 5 years what a crock.  and hauling that s*** doesnt pay a premium rate.  so when your driving down the road and see the placards on JB or Swift just remember that driver has at least 6 months experience.  oh and about the brooklyn bridge big trucks dont fit low clearance.

[Seagoon]

Hi Stringer,

Alright, I'll play that game.

Originally posted by Stringer
I think Seagoon is onto something with this profiling thing.

According to his strawman, Christians should be profiled and searched for pipe bombs since they are the ones that bomb clinics.  And are responsible for terror attacks on our OWN soil against American Citizens, which have resulted in the deaths of AMERICAN CITIZENS!

We'll start with your congregation, Seagoon.  I mean, it's not a problem for your congregation to give up some of it's liberties to make American Citizens safer from pipe bomb attacks, which have happened with more frequency than Islamic attacks on our soil.

BTW, I'm a christian, so don't waste your time thinking I'm not a believer in God.

I like your strawman now.

Since 2001 there have been zero murders at abortion clinics, and a grand total of 8 attempted bombings or arsons. Also clinic "Blockades" dropped from a high of 201 in 1989 to 4 in 2004 (the last year for which data was available). Apparently the draconian laws muzzling free speech, bringing in federal protection, and the threat and occasional application of harsh fines and prison sentences had the desired effect. Direct action against clinics has almost disappeared. All of this is not exactly an argument against using new laws against "terrorism."

If we were to view this as a "Christian insurgency" apparently either the forces were defeated, they got bored (that's so early 90s), or they were actually pacified by regime change. However, this is one example of violence in pursuit of a goal that has definitely fizzled.

By comparison the total number of terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims in the name of Islam since 9/11/2001 currently stands at 4007 with thousands and thousands killed all over the world including USA, Great Britain, Spain, Indonesia, Holland, Italy, etc.

So, we aren't actually talking rocket science here. Combing my congregation, or the other evangelical congregations of America is going to be a fruitless endeavor, we manifestly aren't making pipe bombs. However, as British authorities found to their horror following the London bombings, a disproportionately high number of Mosques in the west have active terror cells in their midst. Additionally, a 2005 Freedom House Report entitled "SAUDI PUBLICATIONS ON HATE IDEOLOGY FILL AMERICAN MOSQUES" found that as the title suggests American mosques are literally filled with literature preaching Jihad, Anti-Americanism, and unmitigated hatred towards all infidels. Freedom House is a non-partisan, non-sectarian civil rights org, so they have no "secret agenda" here. So where would your resources be better spent, chasing phantoms founded on faulty presuppositions, or dealing with the people actually doing the killing?

I know, I know, evidence shmevidence, all religions are equally bad you must be a terrorist because you're a fundamentalist, the crusades, the KKK, etc.

- SEAGOON

[Hangtime]

Seagoon, the moment we declare war on a religion, ANY religion; we lose.

But if we must, then it should be war against ALL organized religions.

Itsa lose, lose deal; creates a self fullfilling prophecy of 'apocolypse'.

Yes?

[Stringer]

Fizzled or just waiting?  Who's to know unless we surveil the congregations, especially congregations where the pulpit is used to preach against abortion.

4007 seperate terror attacks by Muslims on US soil since 2001?

[Eagler]

Seagoon
you are wasting your breath... seems some don't know the good guys from the bad guys..

I just hope the world continues on in such a manner that they can continue to live in their dream worlds .. a world where they can actually compare abortion clinic bombings to 911 ...


but I fear this guy has other plans...

[Stringer]

Eagler,
There are good bombers and bad bombers of innocent civilians?

Do you approve of bombing clinics?

I know I don't approve of terror acts, period.  I didn't know there was a sliding scale according to which religion the bomber claimed to be representing.

According to Seagoon, any additional terror bombing is one too many.  I agree.  I just won't forfiet any of my freedoms to reactionary impulses.

The only difference to clinic bombings and 9/11 was scale.  Each proposed to force their agenda by means of terror.  Each used terror to bring attention to their agenda.  And each used religion as the excuse for carrying out terror acts on innocent lives.

I find both appalling and unacceptable.  I also find it odd that both kill innoncent people in the name of religion.

[lasersailor184]

Seagoon, the moment we declare war on a religion, ANY religion; we lose.

But if we must, then it should be war against ALL organized religions.

Itsa lose, lose deal; creates a self fullfilling prophecy of 'apocolypse'.

Yes?

Wow, if I had not been floating around these boards for those many years, I'd begin to think that you were french.  Or at least of french descent.


It is not an exhaggeration what Seagoon has said.  This is a holy war.  Muslims have declared war on christians and other religions many years ago.  The thought that you refuse to admit it, does not change the fact that it is so.

The holy war is on every continent.  A war that size has never been seen before.    The mere idea that there are people world wide refusing to acknowledge the war is breathtaking.

In the past, the only way for us to get involved was a direct attack on us.  The attack on fort sumter, merchant ships, pearl harbor...  

The real problem here is that we are trying to take a pair of clean white gloves through the world instead of a brutal blunt hammer.

Total war has been declared on all Non-muslims.  How long and how many more lives will it take before we declare it back?

[Gunslinger]

oh yes.  That's a great reason to repeal the patriot act.  Lets go back to pre-9/11 where intel agencies couldnt talk to eachother and several walls where in place that won't allow us to "connect the dots" because RPM has to pay for a backround check.

Personally I think you should still have to do it but the cost should come out of DHS budget

[DREDIOCK]

But how many of those uncovered plots could have still been uncovered using laws already in place?

9/11 itself would not have happened had the goverment simply just did its job and actually enforced the laws that were already IN place.

I dont have a problem with profiling. Thats only been an issue over the last 20 years or so. Untill then nobody had a problem with profiling.

why? because it makes sense.

If male Arab militants are known or beleived to be wanting to hijack planes then I sure as hell dont see any reason to stop and detain and search a red headed  pasty white Irishman, Or an 80 year old woman.

It does however make sense to detain and search an Arab looking individual.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
oh yes.  That's a great reason to repeal the patriot act.  Lets go back to pre-9/11 where intel agencies couldnt talk to eachother and several walls where in place that won't allow us to "connect the dots" because RPM has to pay for a backround check.

Personally I think you should still have to do it but the cost should come out of DHS budget

Its not that that they couldnt talk to each other, its that they wouldnt talk to each other.

There was more than enough information available to law enforcement in this country as to who may have been ploting somthing like this, they dropped the ball!!.

I know its true because I have heard many on this board state the fact that it's Clintons fault..he knew about it in the 90's.

We need folks who want to do the job rather than those who point out why its not possible because of those pesky constitutional road blocks.

The FBI used to be of the mindset that if they didnt develop the lead, it was not worth considering, hopefully that has changed, but you dont have to trash the entire constitution to get those guys to do thier jobs.

shamus

[DREDIOCK]

damn lag