How good were German a/c radios?

[Crumpp]

Nonsense, search signal amplifier, you can definitely boost the signal.

At first sight, one can think of using instead some modest antenna made of a piece of wire, compensating that with supplying the receiver with amplifier strong enough to give the end result as if much better antenna have been used. That, of course, is not the case, since every amplifier creates noise that makes the reception worse, if not impossible. This fact is the cause for a radio-amateur saying that "Antenna is the best HF amplifier."

http://www.mikroelektronika.co.yu/english/product/books/rrbook/chapter3/chapter3b.htm

So don't talk to me about nonsense.

Communiction between the sections was not overly difficult.

Well According too Generalleutnant Josef ('Beppo') Schmid, Kommandant,  I. Jagdkorps:

 

What he says fits the technology and science of the equipment in use.  He was also a rather involved participant in fighter control.  

Makes him more credible in my book than your "nonsense".

All the best,

Crumpp

[Bruno]

Did you look through that whole site you linked to? Here I will save you some time:

3.2. The Simplest Amplified Radio Receiver

The most obvious shortcoming of the receiver described in the previous chapter is that it can perform the sound reproduction loud enough only in case when the programme from some local or very powerful radio transmitter is being received, which can create very strong signal in the reception antenna. The reception of signals from other transmitters is too weak. The only thing that can be done is either to increase the length of the antenna, which, of course, does have its limits, or to insert an amplifying stage into the receiver.

3.7. Receiver with the HF Amplifier

In HF amplifier the signal coming from the radio station is being amplified in its original form. In our case, this means that AM signal is led at input of the HF amplifier, and on its output the same shaped signal is obtained, only with bigger amplitude. This device got its name because it is used to amplify HF signals, although more precise term for it is the Selective Voltage Amplifier (that's how it is called in professional books).

"Antenna is the best HF amplifier."

Antenna design is important that's why I suggested you do an image search. Of course if there is no signal to 'amplify' then an amplifier would be pointless.

As for your scanned image please provide a source. What book is that from and who is the author? With what you provided there is not enough for me to comment on.

I will say that the LW command / control worked down through the Jagddivision (post Feb '42 Jafü later through JD). The LW were fighting over occupied territory. There were listening and broadcasting stations, as well as radar sites for tracking both enemy/ friendly aircraft and nav aids, through out each JD/Jafü. For example check this map to see the operational areas for the various divisions tasked with combating Western Allied air power:

RLV map

We are not talking about extreme ranges like HAM radio or even the ranges of Allied radio. There wasn't a single 'radio station' broadcasting to:

.. all the fighters in the air over Germany, France, Holland, etc...

If you read through SES's site I linked it explains it...

As for who posts the 'nonsense' it's clear to most on this forum, as well as on a few others, that you post nothing but nonsense. That hasn't changed with this thread.

[Angus]

I would think the 190 had a good space for radio, - you could stuff a man in there.
BTW, wasn't that how Rudel got away from being caught by the Russians?

Oh, my infallable memory again

[Angus]

And, BTW, 109 was very loud in the cockpit. Not sure of the 190 though.

[Crumpp]

We are dealing with VHF radios, Bruno.  NOT HF.

The marconi whip vertically polarized antenna(FuG16) on the aircraft does not have the dB gain.  It requires more power output to get the range than the aircraft equipment could produce.

The wire dipole used on the FuGVII is a little better with the exception it is a horizontally polarized antenna.  VHF spectrum has poor horizontal propogation.

The polarization of an antenna or orientation of the radio wave is determined by the electric field or E-plane. The ionosphere changes the polarization of signals unpredictably, so for signals which will be reflected by the ionosphere, polarization is not crucial. However, for line-of-sight communications, it can make a tremendous difference in signal quality to have the transmitter and receiver using the same polarization. Polarizations commonly considered are linear, such as vertical and horizontal, and circular, which is divided into right-hand and left-hand circular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antenna_theory

I will say that the LW command / control worked down through the Jagddivision (post Feb '42 Jafü later through JD).

I would say it worked because they pushed operational control down to the lowest level possible to overcome the communications shortcomings.  Just as Generalleutnant Josef ('Beppo') Schmid, Kommandant, I. Jagdkorps says.

Unfortunately this meant that  they could rarely attack in mass nor were they flexible in their response.  While the allies could communicate with all of their aircraft, the Luftwaffe could not.

In 1945 the Germans came out with a 5 channel radio system that did allow them to coordinate their effort.  Of course by that point it made little difference in the outcome.

The book is a reprint of the Post War POW interrogations and debriefs.

I would think the 190 had a good space for radio, - you could stuff a man in there.

I would have thought so too.  That compartment is all you have.  Past that bulk head and things get tight.  You don't want to put much weight back their either if you can avoid it.  It moves the CG rearward.  

With the Zusatzkraftstoffbehälter im rumpf the CG is pushing the safe limits in the FW-190A8.   Flying a man in the back was a rare occurrance.  You certainly could not engage in combat due to instability of the rearward CG.

All the best,

Crumpp

[Angus]

Same problem as with later Spitfires with rear tanks as well as the Mustang.
Oh, and stuffing a person in there was an absolute exception, - case of emergency.
Hadn't thought of the extra tank though.
BTW, the Brits operated on VHF already in 1940. The first sets were not that good, - i.e. during the BoB, but they soon got an upgrade (with the Mk II I belive).
During the BoB you could say that range was just 40 miles.
In 1941 the range was better, and sound quality just fine. I have a hilarious story of just that, hehe. Will see if I type it up.

[Charge]

"And, BTW, 109 was very loud in the cockpit."

Of course.

The exhaust stacks were in the lower part of the engine cowling generating huge noise, whereas in better a/c the exhaust stacks were in the upper part ie. straight in front of the c-pit and thus generated less noise.

-C+

[Angus]

Gimme an hour or two and I'll give you 3 pilot's view of cockpit's noise.
(Their combined kills are something close to 300 I belive)

[Harry]

Originally posted by Angus
2. Rall refers to the radio equipment as very good - in a 262. Finally clear of the disturbances caused by the magnettos in the 109.
"Endlich ein Funkgerat, das nicht durch die Zundanlage des triebwerks gestört wird"

Now it is your turn to tell me it's rubbish

It only shows your and Rall’s lack of understanding. The 262 didn’t have magnetos, and how exactly is magneto interference the fault of the radio set anyway? Seems to me the problem was that MB failed to shield their engine electrics properly. Common problem in WWII.

[Harry]

Originally posted by Angus
Gimme an hour or two and I'll give you 3 pilot's view of cockpit's noise.
(Their combined kills are something close to 300 I belive)

Why don’t you dig up some quotes from allied pilots as well? I once read a Spit article about a pilot who when he started the engine thought he heard a rattle. After listening for a few seconds the rattle went away and he looked up to see the ground crew were laying on the ground and his crew chief waving for him to shut the engine off. What he thought was an engine rattle was actually his guns emptying all their ammo across the field.

[Angus]

I've heard .303's emptying hundreds of rounds, and they are actually not that noisy.
The 3 pilots include one Spitfire pilot. It's a 1000 pages though....I'm digging like Tom, Dick, and Harry all put together....

[Angus]

Oh, and Harry, tsk tsk tsk:
"It only shows your and Rall’s lack of understanding. The 262 didn’t have magnetos, and how exactly is magneto interference the fault of the radio set anyway"

We are both well aware that there are no magnetos there. It's your lack of understanding that we understand that. That is, - they never got away from the problems incurred by the magnetos....
Add to that, a noisy cockpit...

[Harry]

Originally posted by Angus
We are both well aware that there are no magnetos there. It's your lack of understanding that we understand that. That is, - they never got away from the problems incurred by the magnetos....

Then why did you even bring it up? This thread is about “German a/c radios”. And why did Rall express himself in that way? “Finally a radio that does not get disturbed by the power plant”. If he (and you) really understood he would have said: “Finally a power plant that does not disturb the radio”. Naw, I think your hairy troll-ass is backpedaling for all it’s worth.

Engine interference was a problem in all piston engined aircraft at that time. In the Lanc the radio and intercom had a constant high pitch whine because of engine interference. It’s just that the pilot whines more in Rall’s 109.

[Bruno]

We are dealing with VHF radios, Bruno. NOT HF.

No shyte, you brought up HF, read your quote:

This fact is the cause for a radio-amateur saying that "Antenna is the best HF amplifier."

You linked to a site thats discussing amature HF radio. I simply replied with comments from your own link that shows that an amplifier can be used, even with HF...

The marconi whip vertically polarized antenna(FuG16) on the aircraft does not have the dB gain. It requires more power output to get the range than the aircraft equipment could produce.

Range wasn't an issue. The lack of power from the on board radio can be taken into account for on the ground by Antenna desing and by boosting the signal via an amplifer. Range to the master control station wasn't that great.

I would say it worked because they pushed operational control down to the lowest level possible to overcome the communications shortcomings. Just as Generalleutnant Josef ('Beppo') Schmid, Kommandant, I. Jagdkorps says.

What's the name or ISBN of the book...

Unfortunately this meant that they could rarely attack in mass nor were they flexible in their response. While the allies could communicate with all of their aircraft, the Luftwaffe could not.

Do you need me to site examples of LW mass formations even late in the war?

Here's a couple

On 2 April '44 450 B17s and B-24s of the 15th AF were sent to bomb targets in Styr. They were escorted by P-38s and P-47s. In reponse I. Jagdkorp sent up 226 fighters from 3./JD as well as fighters from 7./JD. (JG 27). They were dircted to target from the ground through as series of vectors and made contact with the bombers at 7000m near Graz. The fighters  weren't in one giant formation, they were in formation by group / unit of about 30 to 50 fighters.

And one more:

Kaczmarek: a German view of the air war

7 July '44 1,129 Fortresses and Liberators of the US Eighth Air Force set out from England to bomb aircraft factories in the Leipzig area and the synthetic oil plants at Boehlen, Leuna-Merseburg and Lutzgendorf. The AGO Focke Wulf works in Oschersleben were a particular target for the bombers even now as the emphasis of the bombing war was switching to the destruction of oil production centres. At about eight o'clock that morning the initial  Luftlagemeldung ( air situation report ) was received in the 'Heimatflakbatterien' in Magdeburg. The Würzburg-Riesen ( long range radar ) had detected large air movements over East Anglia. As the bomber formations droned into Germany Alarmstufe 1 ( alert ) was given to all flak batteries and as the bombers approached the Münster-Osnabruck area the civil population was warned and smoke pots on the ground began to generate smoke screens over potential targets.Luftflotte Reich gave the order for the defending fighters to assemble over Magdeburg. It was a beautifully clear day . Dense condensation trails could be seen up in the stratosphere . There was a continuous deep roaring of the bomber formations. The bombers by-passed the intense flak barrage heading towards the Leipzig area. Further Luftlagemeldungen  arrived . In the air the fighter controller was passing a stream of intercept vectors to Major Walther Dahl , Kommodore JG300, at the head of a Gefechtsverband escorted by Gruppen of JG 300. IV./JG 3 were also airborne. Leading the Fw 190s of his Stabsschwarm west of the intended target Dahl caught sight of his quarry: box after box of bombers heading east. The plan was for the Sturmjäger escorted by sixty Bf109s, to attack the hundred mile long bomber stream at its mid-point. Although the lead and trail bomber formations were heavily escorted, the flanks were covered by small forces making random sweeps. Major Walter Dahl led his forces in behind a Group of Liberators without any interference from escorts. They were to close to point-blank range before opening fire. Dahl had swung his force in behind the Liberators of the 492nd Bomb Group which, as luck would have it, were temporarily without fighter cover.

Allied perspective:

Disaster over Oschersleben

The Luftwaffe, in fact, was well organized on 7 July 1944. Liberators especially equipped to monitor enemy fighter frequencies actually heard the attacking ZG 26 pilots ordered to hit the "third formation" (i.e., the 14th Wing) as the "first formation" had too many escorting fighters protecting it.

The main enemy concentration from Magdeburg plus reinforcements from Southwest Germany, as many as 175 single engine and 125 twins in all, unleashed their attacks against the center of the column. Although one squadron of the leading 389th Group moving into Halle lost three bombers to enemy fighters when it strayed from the parent force, and the 489th lost one over Aschersleben, the majority of the attacks were hammered against the 14th Wing attacking Bernberg. As noted earlier the 44th Group was flying direct-ly behind the 392nd at a three minute interval. At the IP (the 44th noted in its mission report) "FOUR GROUPS OF B-24'S CAME IN FROM THE EAST AND IT BECAME NECESSARY TO SWING TO THE RIGHT... FIGHTER SUPPORT WAS EXCELLENT." In other words, the 492nd was now exposed to attack from the rear, and all local escort had gone with the 44th. Thus was the fate of the 492nd again sealed.

[Crumpp]

You linked to a site thats discussing amature HF radio. I simply replied with comments from your own link that shows that an amplifier can be used, even with HF...

Wow!

You don't get it.  The antenna is the best amplifier.  Adding anything else only works to a very narrow point and there is nothing that can amplify a signal that is not present.

For frequency selection HF radios would have given them the range needed.  It would have been harder to pass data over and would have been subject to interception more readily than the LOS VHF.  I was illustrating that any power amplifier interfers with the reciever.  It just happenend to be an HF amp on the website.

You will effect your reception much more by building a higher dB gain antenna than you will hooking up an "amplifier".  Only Radio Shack, Sears, or whoever you gave money too for that thing, benefits.  The benefits to the reception are negliable.

That, of course, is not the case, since every amplifier creates noise that makes the reception worse, if not impossible.

http://www.mikroelektronika.co.yu/english/product/books/rrbook/chapter3/chapter3b.htm

And that is not a characteristic of the HF spectrum.  That is a characteristic of ALL RF energy.

The major problem though is the fact there IS no signal to amplify.  Unless of course LW fighters were operating in Near Earth Orbit.  The radios they used where Line of Sight VHF!

The aircraft did not carry a powerful enough receiver to have duplex communications at all times.

There is a little known phenomenon called the curvature of the earth that blocks the path.

In fact your fandom reaches to a level that your trying to show a Jagdkorp Commander was wrong in relating his own experience at controlling the Defense.

Your post does nothing except reinforce EXACTLY was Generalleutnant Josef ('Beppo') Schmid relates.

http://img133.potato.com/img.php?loc=loc188&image=a77a1_German_fighter_Control.jpg

Let's look at the your example:

The bombers by-passed the intense flak barrage heading towards the Leipzig area.

However on that day, the USAAF hit many targets all over Occupied Europe:

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force): Mission 458: 1,129 bombers and
756 fighters are dispatched to attack synthetic oil plants, aircraft assembly
plants and engine works, airfields and an equipment depot, marshalling yards
railway station and railway repair shops in Germany; 37 bombers and 6
fighters are lost:
  1. Of 373 B-24s, 102 hit Lutzkendorf and 64 hit Halle oil plants, 90 hit
Bernburg and 73 hit Aschersleben aircraft plants and 8 hit targets of
opportunity; they claim 39-5-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 28 B-24s are lost, 1
damaged beyond repair and 126 damaged; 3 airmen are KIA, 11 WIA and 274 MIA. Escort is provided by 224 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; they claim 46-1-16
Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38 and 3 P-51s are lost (pilots are MIA).
  2. Of 303 B-17s, 64 hit Bohlen and 51 hit Merseburg oil plants, 67 hit
Kolleda and 32 hit Lutzkendorf Airfields, 22 hit targets of opportunity and
16 hit Gottingen marshalling yard; 2 B-17s are lost and 112 damaged; 3 airmen are WIA and 20 MIA. Escort is provided by 185 P-38s, P-47s and P-51s; theyclaim 9-0-1 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 3-0-1 on the ground; 1 P-47 and 1 P-51 are lost (pilots are MIA).
  3. Of 453 B-17s, 114 hit Leipzig/Taucha, 79 hit Leipzig/Mockau, 35 hit Leipzig/Heiterblick and 15 hit Leipzig/Abtnaundorf oil plants, 46 hit Leipzig bearing industry, 35 hit Kolleda Airfield, 19 hit Leipzig Station and 7 hit Nordhausen; 7 B-17s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 152 damaged; 15 airmen are KIA, 5 WIA and 50 MIA. Escort is provided by 247 P-47s and P-51s; they claim 20-0-2 Luftwaffe aircraft in the air and 1-0-0 on the ground; 1 P-51 is damaged beyond repair (pilot is WIA).
  Mission 459: 6 of 6 B-17s drop leaflets in France and Belgium during the
night.  19 B-24s participate in CARPETBAGGER operations during the night.

The Germans could not control all the aircraft intercepting to have real time co-ordination in the air attacking at once.

They had a few shining examples however when circumstances fell into place.  To characterize the system though as reliable is pure nonsense.

The allies could co-ordinate their efforts in the air.  They had better radios including HF sets which could talk from anywhere in skies of Europe back to England or even Italy.  HF uses Skywave propogation and are not Line of Sight.

From one HQ, the allies could control their entire effort in the air in real time.  The Germans could not.

All the best,

Crumpp