Author Topic: 109k4 V P47-n (Read 782 times)

Big G · « **on:** January 22, 2006, 11:28:21 AM »

Hi guys
I'm more curious than anything else really about the following:

I was tooling around at 25k in a k4 when I spotted 4 sets of buffs onroute for the hq, (21k) next to them were 4 P47n's.
My first thought was "uuh oh, I'm gonna get chewed up by the jugs"

Anyway, I dived in on the buffs and got 1 in the first pass, climbed and got another 1 on the way down again, the jugs couldn't get anywhere near me !
I thought these N versions ruled the sky above 20k? I had 3 of them chasing me and they got to within 1.2k of my 6, I then went into a climb and
they just couldn't catch me, I then broke of as I had to get out of dodge (discretion is better part of valour here!)
So my question is this, Did I only escape as I had the initial alt advantage? or was I just lucky?
I just thought that the N ruled over 20k, I was pleasantly surprised to see that they didn't.

Widewing · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2006, 11:45:44 AM »

Your 109K-4 is a bit faster than the P-47N between 20k and 23k. You also had the advantage of altitude, which gives a big E advantage. It probably didn't matter what they were flying when you have the advantage of several thousand feet.

You also don't know the quality of the the pilots... They may have been noobs or hauling far more fuel than needed. If they were at the same altitude as the bombers they were probably noobs... If you fly escort, you must climb high enough above the bombers to effectively intercept fighters. They should also fan out ahead a few miles too. Most guys flying escort really don't know how to escort. Then again, few bother to fly escort as it's monumentally boring....

My regards,

Widewing

Hoarach · « **Reply #2 on:** January 22, 2006, 12:14:03 PM »

Ummm, yea, your talking about the jug here. Them things are big and fat and climb like a rock.

Big G · « **Reply #3 on:** January 22, 2006, 12:19:16 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
Your 109K-4 is a bit faster than the P-47N between 20k and 23k. You also had the advantage of altitude, which gives a big E advantage. It probably didn't matter what they were flying when you have the advantage of several thousand feet.

You also don't know the quality of the the pilots... They may have been noobs or hauling far more fuel than needed. If they were at the same altitude as the bombers they were probably noobs... If you fly escort, you must climb high enough above the bombers to effectively intercept fighters. They should also fan out ahead a few miles too. Most guys flying escort really don't know how to escort. Then again, few bother to fly escort as it's monumentally boring....

My regards,

Widewing

Come to think of it widewing, they were around 800 behind the buffs at co-alt, maybe that's why? I just thought that the n's are supposed to be great up high, but loking back I was probably lucky to have the e advantage etc.
I dread to think what would have happened to me at co-alt...

Simaril · « **Reply #4 on:** January 25, 2006, 11:31:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hoarach
Ummm, yea, your talking about the jug here. Them things are big and fat and climb like a rock.

Hoarach, try it once -- P-47D-40 or N, 25-50% fuel, no ord, wep climb....they really arent bad at all.

When I'm expecting a high alt intercept, I'll take the N with 50% and a drop (for climb out). It easily pulls about 3 vertically.

When you get higher, you cant always trust the AoA settings of autoclimb, and you can end up with too steep a climb for real lefficiency. If you flatten out a bit (cutting down on resistance) and build speed, you can get better climb rates. A lot like the 262 that way - best performance when you're faster.

At alt, the Jug comes into its own. Flying up there is VERY diifferent, but used right the Jug is a monster indeed. I still feel like I have SO much to learn, but at 20K I've outmaneuvered and killed pony "big names" in fair 2v2s -- and I give a chunk of the crdit to the airframe.

Krusty · « **Reply #5 on:** January 25, 2006, 11:35:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Simaril
Hoarach, try it once -- P-47D-40 or N, 25-50% fuel, no ord, wep climb....they really arent bad at all.

In a D40 at 25% gas you get about 9 minutes of flight time. 50% is 20 minutes or so. You actually NEED DTs on them every time you up, so that will slow/weight you down. The N shines because it has all that gas, so you can take 50% and no DTs and have plenty.

However, even with WEP the climb rate is still sub par. Many planes break 3500fpm (hell the spit16 does 3500fpm at 10k without WEP!) but the jug will just barely pass 3000fpm.

So the climb sucks. But once you're at your target alt don't discount it.

gatt · « **Reply #6 on:** January 25, 2006, 12:36:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Big G
they were around 800 behind the buffs at co-alt

Definitely you cought them with (their) pants down. No sweep, no high cover .... now, imagine how loud were the screams by the buff pilots

Big G · « **Reply #7 on:** January 25, 2006, 03:37:07 PM »

I can only imagine Gatt lol
Come to think of it, it's a shame there isn't a lot more fights at a decent alt
I don't mind dying up high as I have had a good fight and the best guy wins (usually)
Better than being ho-d or gang banged by a bunch of lalas at 3k while you are carrying ord somewhere !
Cheers Guys

bozon · « **Reply #8 on:** January 25, 2006, 04:42:24 PM »

Krusty have some good points.
I'd add that the WEP is very important to save. With it, the climb is "not bad". The interesting part is that from the ground up to about 20k you have the exact same climb performance and even above it climbrate decays very slowly. 3000 fpm is not impressive at sea level but it's quite good above 20k. If I recall correctly, above 10k, your WEP climb in D40 becomes better than P51D (25% fuel).

Speed grows almost linearly with alt. The higher you go the faster you get relative to other planes, whose speed increase is not as significant. Still, the K4 is significantly faster and climb better up to its critical alt ~22k.

use this great pages from netaces:
http://www.netaces.org/ahplanes/comparisons/speed.htm#title
http://www.netaces.org/ahplanes/comparisons/roc.htm#title

Bozon

Big G · « **Reply #9 on:** January 25, 2006, 05:20:14 PM »

As a matter of interest Bozon, is 22k the best alt for the K4 in terms of performance etc?

Widewing · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2006, 08:35:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Big G
As a matter of interest Bozon, is 22k the best alt for the K4 in terms of performance etc?

Yes, above or below 22k performance falls off. It's still pretty fast above that, but it finds itself being out-performed by the P-47N and both Mustangs as altitudes go up much beyond 25k.

My regards,

Widewing

Big G · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2006, 01:37:13 PM »

You were right widewing, had a K4 at 22k last night and it flew really well.
Trouble I have now is deciding to either A, stay above 22k and drag any jugs/ponys down to that level or B, stay at or below 22k and try and rope/drag someone up to that level.

It really is a shame that most fights are down low and I can't help but feel sorry for some guys as they are really missing out on some great fun at alt, you can try various ACM and work the aircraft as it was supposed to, that's why I love flying escorts on HQ runs, a great chance for a realistic fight.