History of Palestine?

[weaselsan]

For those who wonder why I will from time to time say that Palistine doesn't exist.

Palestine was a province of the Roman Empire. It is also the name of the ancient state of Israel, when the Jews lived there. The old Roman Province of Palestine corresponds to what is 1. Israel today and 2. a lot of the country of Jordan.

The Modern Term Palestine came back into usage both as a response of the Jews to reclaim a homeland of their own, and because the British Empire administered the territory of what used to be ancient Israel.

The British called this territory “the Palestinian mandate”. However the term “Palestine” has always historically been used to refer to a Jewish Nation and a Jewish Homeland. Prior to the British taking over their “Palestinian Mandate” [which actually meant “Jewish mandate”], the territory of Palestine was administered by the Turkish Ottoman Empire (which vaporized and imploded in WW1).

In 1948, (47 ?), the Jewish state was reborn. Immediately, it was attacked by its Arab neighbors. The Arabs lost. Those Arabs eventually formed the basis for the Palestinian refugee problem, a problem of their own making which occured because they attacked Israel.

The Palestianians which supported Israel were integrated into Israeli society. Today the Palestinians who live in Israel have the right to vote in the Elections in Israel. The Palestinians who refused to join in helping Israel after the 1947-48 war eventually went into camps, and those camps were located inside the territory of Israel.

The camps were not administered by Israel, but rather by the United Nations. Other Arab Countries never came to their aid until Arafat threatened to blow them up. Then – all of a sudden – all of the Arab nations - of course – had “always been concerned” about the Palestinian problem

Today 95% of the Palestinians live under Palestinian Control, under the direct administration of the Fatah party (Now hamas a terrorist organization with one objective the destruction of israel)  and the PLO, which renamed itself the PA (Palestine Authority). The Goal of the PLO was to eliminate Israel.

The Goal of the PA supposedly have renounced that. Apparently, they continue to foster the killing and bombing of Israeli civilians as series of “constant coincidences”.


When people  tell you that the Palestinian nation is “invented”, it is because this is true. The term “palestine” has never applied to Arabs before. This was simply a trick by Arafat to try to claim territory which has always belonged to Israel. Jordan in fact – already represents 50% of the territory of Ancient Israel, and Jordan is 90% Palestinian Already. The Koran does not mention Jerusalem by name once, and the Jews are called
the People of the Book (which means People of the old testament)          
there is no basis to suggest that Israel ever belonged to Arabs. Some Arabs did settle there in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and they have been given the chance to integrate into Israel.

However, most of the Palestinians who claim to be “Palestinian:” have jordanian, syrian, lebanese, and egyptian Passports. In other words, they are imports and illegals. The goal is to overwhelm Jews by Immigration and population transfers. If all other methods fail then through violent means.

[StarOfAfrica2]

Even Arafat was Egyptian.  Egypt didnt want him.

The following came from the article "The 100 years' war" in the WSJ in early January.

The Arab-Israeli struggle might be equated -- at least in duration -- to the Hundred Years' War between England and France in the 14th and 15th centuries. One could say it began in the early 20th century when Zionists began arriving in significant numbers in the Holy Lands, fleeing oppression in Europe. They augmented the Jewish population of what would later be called Palestine.

Late in the 19th century, according to the most reliable studies, Jews were only about 10% of a population of about 700,000, with Christians a further 10% and Arabs most of the rest. But with the Zionist movement Jewish numbers began to grow. With their socialist ideology and commitment to soul-purifying physical labor the Zionists formed tightly knit, dedicated communities foreign to the natives of the region.

Great Britain encouraged the Zionists, issuing the Balfour Declaration in 1917 promising the Jews a homeland in the region even as the British army was driving out the Turks. After the World War I allies destroyed Ottoman rule, the British under a League of Nations mandate further encouraged Jewish settlement. The local Arabs mounted anti-Zionist riots. One of the leaders of these demonstrations was Amin al-Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who would later make common cause with Adolf Hitler, imploring the Germans to thwart any British effort to create a Jewish state.

Most of the Jews who migrated to Palestine in the '30s and '40s were not Zionists. They were fleeing the Holocaust and had nowhere else to go. But the Zionists formed the hard muscle that overthrew the British mandate in 1948 and defeated the Arabs who tried to block the establishment of Israel. Their kibbutzim collectives produced the tough native-born "sabras," among them Ariel Sharon, who formed the core of the Israeli military forces. With roots going back to the 19th century, the Zionists had an uncommon dedication to the defense of a Jewish state.

There would be plenty of fighting. In 1956, Israel, with British and French support, invaded the Sinai after Nasser seized the Suez Canal, but to little avail. In June 1967 came the Six Day War and the IDF's lightning victory over the combined forces of neighboring Arab states that gave Israel control of large territories formerly controlled by Egypt, Jordan and Syria. Then, in October 1973, there was the Yom Kippur War, which Israel might have lost had Gen. Sharon not conducted a bold tank maneuver to neutralize Egyptian surface-to-air missile batteries near the Suez Canal.

Now that is all history. Ariel Sharon is finally hors de combat and his long record will go into the history books. Israel will continue to fight. The barren land the Zionists settled so long ago has become a strong state of 6.5 million people, mostly Jews. It has gradually modified the socialism that hampered its economic development. The Hundred Years' War will continue, but casualties are fewer and the U.S. has established a military presence in the region, grounds for hope that the war is winding down.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by weaselsan
...When people  tell you that the Palestinian nation is “invented”, it is because this is true. The term “palestine” has never applied to Arabs before. This was simply a trick by Arafat to try to claim territory which has always belonged to Israel....

It was 'owned' by the Roman Empire, the Arabs from Bagdhad, Cairo, The Crusades era Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Ottomans, and several other Caliphates since the time of Soloman and David, so to say it has always belonged to Israel is a bit of a stretch.

One can say that a self governing Arab "Palestine" has never existed.

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
It was 'owned' by the Roman Empire, the Arabs from Bagdhad, Cairo, The Crusades era Kingdom of Jerusalem, the Ottomans, and several other Caliphates since the time of Soloman and David, so to say it has always belonged to Israel is a bit of a stretch.

One can say that a self governing Arab "Palestine" has never existed.

Let me put it this way, prior to the establishment of the State of Israel
1. there has never been a "Palestinian People"
2.There has never been a "Palestinian Government"

Only an ancient name occupied at the time by Italians, that the British picked up and called the Palestine mandate. Remember the British where very good at creating countries where none had existed before. Note the perfectly straight line between Iraq and Kuwait. Drawn by a British general whose name escapes me at the moment, with a straight edge, possibly a ruler.

[lasersailor184]

Yes, Holden is correct.


However, jews have always been in Israel.  They might not have had self own of the land around them, but they've always been there.

[straffo]

Originally posted by weaselsan
Let me put it this way, prior to the establishment of the State of Israel
1. there has never been a "Palestinian People"
2.There has never been a "Palestinian Government"

Only an ancient name occupied at the time by Italians, that the British picked up and called the Palestine mandate. Remember the British where very good at creating countries where none had existed before. Note the perfectly straight line between Iraq and Kuwait. Drawn by a British general whose name escapes me at the moment, with a straight edge, possibly a ruler.

1. wrong,because people don't need a label to exist.

2. I fail to see any logic in you statement.



@Lazer : think of Canaan

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by straffo
1. wrong,because people don't need a label to exist.

2. I fail to see any logic in you statement.



@Lazer : think of Canaan

Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y maybe the logic will s-l-o-w-l-y sink in.
 
There... has... never... been..a...people... called... the.. Palestinian People.
it..was...made...up...by...an ....Egyptian...named...Yassar Arafat.

[Silat]

Originally posted by weaselsan
Let me say it s-l-o-w-l-y maybe the logic will s-l-o-w-l-y sink in.
 
There... has... never... been..a...people... called... the.. Palestinian People.
it..was...made...up...by...an ....Egyptian...named...Yassar Arafat.

I cant believe Im going to say this but, Weasle is correct.

But living in the here and now, they do exist... So something has to be done.

[weaselsan]

Originally posted by Silat
I cant believe Im going to say this but, Weasle is correct.

But living in the here and now, they do exist... So something has to be done.

Very simple...agree that Israel has the right to exist, and stop sending in Morons to kill innocent people with the promise of 72 virgins and a pat on the back from Allah. However, I will post the Hamas doctrine here if you would like to see it. It doesn't bode well for peace in the area.

You would have thought that they got the message after Burak had given in to 99% of everything that Arafat was asking for and all they got was the Intifada. Most of my Liberal friends (Both of them actually) were sure when he was elected that it was "Peace in our time". Until I pointed out that Arafat 1> was corrupt and in it for the money, and 2> was a dead man if he offered peace to the Israelis under any circumstances. I was wrong according to them all the way up to the first rocks being thrown. Then they changed the subject, which brings us to Hamas,

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Silat
I cant believe Im going to say this but, Weasle is correct.

But living in the here and now, they do exist... So something has to be done.

So, if anyone takes a name with some sort of very vague historical precendent, and moves onto a piece of land that is referred to by said vague historical precedent, then they are entitled to "have something done about it" regardless of their actual ability to claim that land, because "in the here and now, they do exist"?  That's some real good use of logic. NOT!

[Delirium]

I feel alot of sympathy towards Israel, more so now with so many countries around them declaring publicly their aggression towards them.

That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.

Why weren't they given part of Germany as war reparations instead of where they are now?

How can they lay claim to the area they currently reside, it seems as silly as the US giving land back to Spain, France,  and England because they once resided here.

How come Israel has so much political weight? A country that is not a whole lot bigger than my state of Connecticut not only can tell the US what it wants to do, but it also has nuclear weapons.

Why wasn't the area Israel that currently resides on become a neutral territory? That whole area is the nexus of several religions and should belong to no single group.

I'm sure I'll be accused of an anti-Semitism bias, but the above just doesn't make sense to me.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't want to see the Israeli people moved in anyway. It is far too late for that, they have become an established country and appeasement of the radical Muslims just doesn't work anyway.

[bozon]

That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.
 

Delirium,
These point are perfectly valid and were asked by Jews themselves. The Zionist movement big idea was that Jews are a nation - not only a religion or a culture. As such, the solution for long history of anti-semitism and prosecution is to have their own state. The Palestine territory was an obvious choise but other option were brought up.

The vast majority of Jews did NOT agree with them - mostly western Europe jews who were trying very hard to be accepted as loyal citizens in their countries: "Germans/French of Moses religion". Zionist movement only started to really pick up in the 1930's.

By 1945, most of the opposition to zionists was anahilated by Hitler or fled to America. Those left in Europe were refugees in their own countries and couldn't go back to their "homes" (in some cases the Poles and Ukranians turned out to be as bad as the Nazies). The only real options left were immigrate to America or join the Zionists in Palestine in an attempt to have a state of ther own. They were perfectly aware that there were other people living here as well, but when it comes to survival, moral dilemas and justice take the back seat. Today, the world Jewish population is almost evenly split between the US and Israel and a minority is scattered around the world.

How come Israel has so much political weight? A country that is not a whole lot bigger than my state of Connecticut not only can tell the US what it wants to do, but it also has nuclear weapons.

Israel is completly blown out of proportions. If you look at CNN coverage one might think it is one of the world most important countries. The number of forein reporters in Israel is about the same as the number of forein reporters in the entire African continent.

It is used by many world leader to explain why things are bad and distract their own people. It is easy for the western world to blame Islamic terrorism on Israel and for arab leader to explain why their coutries are backward 3rd world countries. They hate it because Israel proves that it is possible to create a successful western country here without any oil or natural resources. It is also the only democracy between Morroco and Pakistan. Israel has space technology since the 70's (only 5 other counties in the world have launcing capabilities), is one of the top in the world in published scientific papers per capita and in the 90's produced more startup companies then the entire western europe combined. How can this be? it's because Israelies must be cheating.

Bozon

P.S.
Israel does not have nuclear weapons. The official response is "Israel will not be the first to introduce nuclear weapons to the middle east". It has the technology the materials the knowhow and the means to launch it, so I guess it's just a matter of putting it together on a short notice.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Delirium
...That said, I don't understand the whole reason Israel is in the area.

Somebody named Moses first homesteaded the area a while back.

Why weren't they given part of Germany as war reparations instead of where they are now?

They wanted their holy places, and the UN General Assy drew the borders for the Jewish homeland where it is.

How can they lay claim to the area they currently reside, it seems as silly as the US giving land back to Spain, France,  and England because they once resided here.

Why would you give back stolen property to the ones who stole it (see American Indians)

How come Israel has so much political weight? A country that is not a whole lot bigger than my state of Connecticut not only can tell the US what it wants to do, but it also has nuclear weapons.

They have a powerful friend.

Why wasn't the area Israel that currently resides on become a neutral territory? That whole area is the nexus of several religions and should belong to no single group.

The '46 (or was it '47... 48?) UNGA resolution made Jeruselum a neutral international city, it didn't take.

I'm sure I'll be accused of an anti-Semitism bias, but the above just doesn't make sense to me.

As both Jews and Arabs are semites, by choosing to favor one semite over another, you are not anti-semitic.

[bozon]

oh yes, and the question of whether or not there was a Palestinian nation/state is mute. These people exist now, and regardless of history they need a solution.

Bozon

[Holden McGroin]

moot.  Mimes are mute.