"You MIGHT be a Democrat if:

[F4UDOA]

Toad,

That personel freedom you enjoy in the rural areas is a bi-product of the union of a group of large cities and states that garauntee your freedom and safety. You say that we have perceived freedom. You got that backwards. It is the existance of the large cities in the country that support this whole thing. You may never want to come visit but we preserve your life style.

What you describe as your eutopia is really anarchy. And if North America was in a state of anarchy how long do you think it would take for other countries to carve up that terratory no matter how many automatic weapons you have in your basement? Even the smallest countries would be a threat.  What do you think those pesky Columbian death squads would do to a bunch of farm boys when they come up there to get some payback??

Here is my theory on why republicans are the way they are. Republicans are like dogs and cats that don't get socialized properly when they are young. If you can't play well with others then go get your own sandbox mentality. And that's OK. I just don't want you running a country with 300million people in it if you can't even stand seeing your neighbors more than once a day.

Later
F4UDOA  

Ps. I think your statement about perceived safety is backwards also. Note all of the Highschool shootings from the past two years have been in very lightly populated areas where it is perceived to be safe. Nobody in NY. makes that assumption.

[Maverick]

F4UDOA,

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAH!!!!!!

[Karnak]

Thanks F4UDOA.

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only liberal who enjoys a fasination with WWII and WWII aircraft.  

Its nice to hear from guys like you and Hangtime.  Makes me feel a little less of an outcast.

Sisu
-Karnak

[Jigster]

And Al Gore and Bill Clinton are rags to riches types?   Politicians are aristocrates/elitests by nature, although there are exceptions.

I love it when someone tries to make an idealology out of being a conservative or liberal.  

In all honesty I just follow the issues and try to figure out empty promises and real ones.

Anything that can be said about one side can often be applied to the other (and I'm tired of hearing Al's fake stories, like the one about the Unions... )

I've been voting for the penguins, but not this year, nope, voting for the Polar bears in this year's North Pole elections.

Both canidates are goobers this year. And Pat is insane. I really wish McCain would of got the nomination and I hope his soft money policy get passed.

- Jig

[Jigster]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Toad,

That personel freedom you enjoy in the rural areas is a bi-product of the union of a group of large cities and states that garauntee your freedom and safety. You say that we have perceived freedom. You got that backwards. It is the existance of the large cities in the country that support this whole thing. You may never want to come visit but we preserve your life style.

What you describe as your eutopia is really anarchy. And if North America was in a state of anarchy how long do you think it would take for other countries to carve up that terratory no matter how many automatic weapons you have in your basement? Even the smallest countries would be a threat.  What do you think those pesky Columbian death squads would do to a bunch of farm boys when they come up there to get some payback??

Here is my theory on why republicans are the way they are. Republicans are like dogs and cats that don't get socialized properly when they are young. If you can't play well with others then go get your own sandbox mentality. And that's OK. I just don't want you running a country with 300million people in it if you can't even stand seeing your neighbors more than once a day.

Later
F4UDOA  

Ps. I think your statement about perceived safety is backwards also. Note all of the Highschool shootings from the past two years have been in very lightly populated areas where it is perceived to be safe. Nobody in NY. makes that assumption.

LOL this is some funny stuff. Rural people = anarchism...hehehehe.

Far from it. I think we have alot more respect for one another when we don't have to put up with seeing the same people everyday, having them make to much noise, etc.

Large cities have never been about freedom. They are about order. You give up freedoms (restrictions on how, what and where you do to keep order and promote equality) in order to prevent the whole anarchism thing. (that is a conservative ideal order-->freedom-->equality in that order of importance)

Rural areas don't have the conflicts of urbanization, such as space, traffic and all that stuff, less need for order because people aren't so close togather(less chance of aggressive action) so they give up less freedoms for order. Hardly anarchism.

By definition a city must have more governmental control because the more people there are in one area, the more conflict of wants and needs there are. Rural areas just don't need that kind of regulation. Ever been stopped in a rural town? The cops are alot stricter then city cops when it comes to little things. And where I use to live the Game Wardens did double duty, as traffic cops and game regulation. City police see so many little things they let them go because it's pointless to waste time on it. Priorities and all.

Let us not forget, the US was in a state of anarchism (quite literally) as soon as the western frontieer was opened and until it closed. Very low population densities. No Hostile take overs.  

When people get togather, bad things are bound to happen.


Btw the recent massacres have been in areas  with high population densitys. Columbine had a very high school attendence. The suburbs of Colorado had a major population explosion in the last few decades (yanno, what south park is based on   ) It's considered safe because that's one of those Urban images...the safe suburbs.

There was 8 people in my graduating class. That's light (SPARSH!) population
They had no problems with us brining shotguns or squirrel rifles to school (provided they were locked down during the day in a closet, but thats because we didn't want people messing with them   ) because we had such a small class of people and often went hunting in the mornings before school and then after. In fact it was the norm to bring a new deer rifle or something of that nature to show it off, as we tended to be over proud of it.

wth was I? Oh yeah, ruralism is not equal to anarchism  

Maybe libertarianism.

I live around Houston now. I'm desensatised from watching the news every night. I swear we have at least one murder/serious assault every night. That kinda crap didn't happen in Alto, Texas.

Cities sustain people. They don't sustain freedom and security. People and order, thats about it.

People as a whole sustain freedom and security.

- Jig

[F4UDOA]

Jigster,

 

Large cities have never been about freedom. They are about order. You give up freedoms (restrictions on how, what and where you do to keep order and promote equality) in order to prevent the whole anarchism thing. (that is a conservative ideal order-->freedom-->equality in that order of importance)

I don't define personal freedom as the ability to find a parking spot. It has more to do with things like minorites being able to walk down the street without fear of being drug behind a pickup truck until their limbs fall off. Are those the restrictions your speak of? It's called the bill of rights. And yes I have had the experiance of driving through a small town.
It is also not what I would descibe as personal freedom. It is as close to being arrested in a third word country as you can get. Judge, Jury and trial all wrapped up around one fat guy with a badge. Is that a conservative idealogy too? I don't recall Jesse Healms being a big supporter of civil liberties. BTW, the bigginings of civil law comes from the earliest interpratations of the Bible in Talmudic Law written by Jews from about 500BC. to 1000AD. I'm pretty sure even then that Jewish people were Democrats.

 

Let us not forget, the US was in a state of anarchism (quite literally) as soon as the western frontieer was opened and until it closed. Very low population densities. No Hostile take overs.

Dude? Surely you are joking? That is exactly what happened. Have you forgotten the Alamo in the South with the Spanish/Mexican? How about the the French/Indian war? Why do you think we aren't in Canada? And what happened to the only "real americans" the American Indians? The only reason the "west was won" is because of the US. Cavalry coming out there to save it's citizens. Unfortunatly the people that currently occupy that space are not as grateful as it's original occupants. However countries like Columbia, Cuba and Nicaragua were not in a position to make claims at that time.

Later
F4UDOA

 

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
It is the existance of the large cities in the country that support this whole thing. You may never want to come visit but we preserve your life style.

Really?

How much wheat do you guys grow downtown? Did they ever get that new feedlot built in downtown Trenton? I bet the Newark inner city vegetable farms are going great guns...selling the surplus overseas yet?  

You preserve the RURAL lifestyle? Hey, maybe you can quit your day job!

The cities could all disappear and life on the Kansas prairie could simply revert to the way it was 150 years ago. A harder life? Most definitely! But doable none the less.

Can modern Newark say the same thing? Could it exist under the conditions of 150 years ago? Well, after the slaughter of it's inhabitants when your highly regulated society broke down...the survivors could try.  


Anarchy in rural areas? Not at all. Absolutely much less regulated, however. In short, what Jig said.

[F4UDOA]

Toad,

Ehhh, yes we could live without the entire Mid-west. New Jersey is still mostly farm land. I live in a densly populated area but I can walk to a horse farm from my house.
In fact Cherry Hill refers to the origin of the comminity which was a Cherry orcherd. I still have two apple trees in my backyard from previous days. And yet I am 10 minutes from Downtown Phila.

Do you think the Mid-West would survive if there was no large coastal cities or sea ports? Do you think you would have Cars or heavy machinery, fuel or clean water without the cities to provide manufacturing and logistics? Your current life would be unrecognizable. And of course there is having to learn how to speak spanish factor.  

Later
F4UDOA  

[MrLars]

Republicans and Democrats huh...
I was a staunch Republican untill Tricky Dick came to office. Ya all know him, He's the one that prolonged the Nam war for politcal gains...and relieved an estimated 20 thousand parents of the burden of seeing their sons <and daughters> grow up to have families of their own.

BTW...I first went there under a Democratic administration because it was my duty. I went back 2 more times because my experience was needed to help keep the "fish" alive.

So George Jr. flew jets eh...dangerous, shure, but compaired to the rest of us durring the war...wussy, very wussy.

Lars <'67-72 in country>

[This message has been edited by MrLars (edited 09-22-2000).]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
New Jersey is still mostly farm land

Your current life would be unrecognizable.  

This is what I love about discussing something with you F4!

So you are saying that the RURAL areas of New Jersey would support the CITIES?

Exactly! The cities can't survive without rural areas, not the other way around as you previously stated.

Try this theoretical postulate...remove all products based on raw materials or products that are produced in rural areas (outside city limits) from the store shelves in any city.

Remove all products produced with materials and labor obtained inside of any "city limits" from any rural store shelves.

Which population would be in trouble the fastest?

As to your other point:

Of course life 150 years ago bears no relation to life today. NO argument there.

The difference is that I could easily survive here under those conditions. People in NYC or EWR or PHL wouldn't...you WOULD finally understand anarchy then.  

And finally, here's a thought to consider...

When you city folk get together in those nice suburban neighborhoods, what's the first thing that happens? Well, you get a covenant for the neighborhood that tells you how hi your "privacy"   fence can be, what kind of siding goes on your house and on and on and on....might I suggest that this is just one little, tiny freedom you give up for the security of your investments?

Well, why did people leave the "Old World" to come to the "New World"? Basically they were a bit tired of being told how to live their lives (of course, there are other reasons too).

Why did people leave the settled part of the East and come West? I suggest to you it was partly that same sentiment.

Therefore, the ancestors out here tended to come from rather "independent thinkers".

I like to believe that spirit is still more prevalent on this side of the River.

 

[MrLars]

F4UDOA...

Jersy eh. I used to go to Hadden <sp?> Heights on garbage pick-up day and collect some really great furniture the affluent would toss out. Spent some time at Ft. Dix and lived in Lindenwold, worked in Camden and went to college at Rutgers there.
Everybody knows that there ain't no cherries in Cherry Hill...women or the fruit variety!

Lars <--- can't understand why anyone that pronounces water as wutter and coffee as coaffee thinks us Californians have accents.


[This message has been edited by MrLars (edited 09-22-2000).]