Author Topic: 45  (Read 1588 times)

Offline wrag

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« on: February 03, 2006, 05:07:30 AM »
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline cpxxx

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« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2006, 06:13:00 AM »
If they are so close you need a pistol. Maybe they should think about issuing UZI's or the Mach 10. Is it time to reconsider the submachine gun. Why mess around with one .45 slug when you can blast them with fifteen .9mm rounds or even .45's. Bring back the Tommy gun, I say.  

I remember seeing a Marine on TV armed only with a pistol because he was carrying some other gear. It seemed wrong when the submachine gun was invented for that very purpose.

Offline SMIDSY

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« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2006, 06:31:14 AM »
an easy answer: .45 caliber is a big bullet for a pistol. about 11.5mm (or something.) that meens it is heavier and has more surface area for better stopping power. this is nessasary because many combatants have been found to be high on opium when in combat, thus increasing the need for a...OOO how bout the Webly manstopper round? it was developed to stop battle-frenzied Zulu warriors. the fact is that the M1911A1 is more effective than the current 9mm baretta.


in regards to stopping power, i will quote Martin Dougherty on this one...

"This concept has been demonstrated on a practical basis by big game hunters who chose to carry small-calibre, high-velocity rifles rather than the traditional big-bore big game rifles. Their victems were more likely to be enraged than disabled. More than a few hunters shot an elephant that subsequently died from internal trauma - but only after goring and trampling the intrepid hunter."

Offline wrag

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« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2006, 06:38:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SMIDSY
an easy answer: .45 caliber is a big bullet for a pistol. about 11.5mm (or something.) that meens it is heavier and has more surface area for better stopping power. this is nessasary because many combatants have been found to be high on opium when in combat, thus increasing the need for a...OOO how bout the Webly manstopper round? it was developed to stop battle-frenzied Zulu warriors. the fact is that the M1911A1 is more effective than the current 9mm baretta.


in regards to stopping power, i will quote Martin Dougherty on this one...

"This concept has been demonstrated on a practical basis by big game hunters who chose to carry small-calibre, high-velocity rifles rather than the traditional big-bore big game rifles. Their victems were more likely to be enraged than disabled. More than a few hunters shot an elephant that subsequently died from internal trauma - but only after goring and trampling the intrepid hunter."


From you comment I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the article?
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Curval

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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2006, 07:08:22 AM »
High on opium?  That is pretty stupid.  From what I know of opium it is a drug that makes you want to lie down and doze...not get up and fight.

Uppers of any kind, Khat, meth, etc. may be good for fighting, but opium?  I would have thought taking that stuff would get you killed quick in a battle.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2006, 07:17:53 AM »
It would be like taking a couple of percocets Curv. I know when I had to take them for my wisdom teeth, I was loving life but couldn't play a game worth ****. I ended up falling asleep on the keyboard.
-SW

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2006, 07:18:13 AM »
The 45ACP was developed in response to the MORO warriors, who were severing the heads of soldiers AFTER being mortally wounded by 38 Colt rounds.

Given "ball" type ammo (non hollow point), the 45 has a much greater frontal area than the 9mm, about the same difference as between the 45 and the 38 (remember the Moro warriors?), and as such transfers more energy to flesh, and disrupts more tissue, creating more shock and a larger wound channel.

When you move to hollow point ammo, the difference is even greater. One of the most reliable man stopping rounds is the 45ACP 230 grain flying ashtray. It ranks a VERY close second to the 357 Magnum 125 grain +P hollow point. The 9mm is not often in the top five.

There were four main reasons given for adopting the 9mm over the 45 for military use, most of which are not even valid, some of which the weapon adopted negates.

The first is that our NATO allies use the 9mm.

The second is that the 9mm is more likely to penetrate hardened (kevlar) headgear. Well, rarely do you have people shot in the helmet, because few people try headshots, and even then, you rarely see one made at an angle that allows ANY pistol round to penetrate.

The third is grip size. A full third or more people find the old 1911 Colt grip much more agreable than the Model 92 Beretta. The grip of the 92 Beretta is not small, because it has a double stack magazine, and the trigger reach, especially for the first shot, isn't much shorter either.

Fourth is felt recoil/controlability. Many find the Beretta to be no more controllable than the 1911, because despite being 100 years old, the frame/grip of the 1911 was better designed to fit the human hand and control recoil.

Regarding capacity, I'd rather hit the enemy ONCE and put him DOWN, than hit him three or four times and have him keep coming.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2006, 07:23:48 AM »
Opiates affect those who take them regularly far differently than those who take them rarely for medicinal purposes. If you refer to those who take opiates before battle, remember that they take them in a different dose than you do for pain, under different circumstances.


There's a huge difference between "I want plenty of medication to kill this pain while I lie on the couch and rest" and "I don't want pain to stop me from killing many of my enemies before fulfillling my destiny by being killed in glorious battle for my maker".
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Curval

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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2006, 07:33:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
It would be like taking a couple of percocets Curv. I know when I had to take them for my wisdom teeth, I was loving life but couldn't play a game worth ****. I ended up falling asleep on the keyboard.
-SW


hehe

Been there...had the percs for a bad back.  Couldn't fly fighters at all...reactions were just waaaay too slow.  But bombing missions were kinda fun...as long as I stayed awake.

;)

Virgil...good point.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline MrRiplEy[H]

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2006, 08:05:01 AM »
Definiteness of purpose is the starting point of all achievement. –W. Clement Stone

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2006, 09:00:04 AM »
What never ceases to amaze me about those studies, many of which cite the Miami shootout specificly, is how they have failed to learn the lesson imparted by that shootout. The response to the poor performance of the 9mm round issued to Special Agent Jerry Dove is now the 40 Short and Weak, which offers little, if any, improvement. It isn't big enough or heavy enough to offer improved tissue disruption or penetration at slower speeds, and it isn't fast enough to be much better than a medium velocity cartridge. If you're going to use a bullet that is less than .43" diameter and lighter than 180 grains, it better have 1300 feet per second muzzle velocity. Especially if it is an expanding bullet.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Masherbrum

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Re: 45
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2006, 09:17:13 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Why the 45 and NOT the 9mm???

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060201.aspx


It's a better round for the task suited wrag.   I'll agree with them and say that the Mk 23 SOCOM is a large pistol.  It is the only pistol to be in the "Offensive Weapons" category the US Military has.  I thought the US Military was going to work with HK and build a modified USP 45 to their liking.  

As for a comparison between the 9 and 45, while the 9mm can obviously kill something, it relies on the bullet to expand (or mushroom).  Firing ball ammo at a human in a military role is completely insane.   These will go through the assailant.   The 45 even in ball ammo will not have enough energy to go through the assailant.  Make the change to Hollow points, and the 45 is still better, larger area, and stopping power.  

I have a USP 45, I use CorBon 230gr +P ammo in it, and it is the fastest 230gr JHP out there.   The recoil is nothing on a 9mm, I find it hard to believe people have a problem "managing the recoil on a Beretta 92/96 than a 1911".    9mm is almost like shooting a .22, in terms of recoil.

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Offline Sandman

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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2006, 09:55:01 AM »
I work with a few Army vets. They all agreed that 9mm lacks accuracy and preferred the 45 cal for that reason.
sand

Offline wrag

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Re: Re: 45
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2006, 10:01:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
It's a better round for the task suited wrag.   I'll agree with them and say that the Mk 23 SOCOM is a large pistol.  It is the only pistol to be in the "Offensive Weapons" category the US Military has.  I thought the US Military was going to work with HK and build a modified USP 45 to their liking.  

As for a comparison between the 9 and 45, while the 9mm can obviously kill something, it relies on the bullet to expand (or mushroom).  Firing ball ammo at a human in a military role is completely insane.   These will go through the assailant.   The 45 even in ball ammo will not have enough energy to go through the assailant.  Make the change to Hollow points, and the 45 is still better, larger area, and stopping power.  

I have a USP 45, I use CorBon 230gr +P ammo in it, and it is the fastest 230gr JHP out there.   The recoil is nothing on a 9mm, I find it hard to believe people have a problem "managing the recoil on a Beretta 92/96 than a 1911".    9mm is almost like shooting a .22, in terms of recoil.

Karaya


I had a 9mm Beretta 92/96.  Got rid of it.  The recoil was managable but the dang grip was twisting in my hand.

Got a 1911 now.  It shoots better then I do LOL.  Guess you need bigger hands then I have for a 9mm?

Got very narrow grips for it BTW.  Funny never thought of my hands being small???
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline RightF00T

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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2006, 10:12:04 AM »
Staring down the barrel of a 9mm just doesn't have the same ring to it....