Author Topic: Will 109s and Fw-190s be fixed before ToD release (Read 10611 times)

justin_g · « **Reply #285 on:** February 24, 2006, 03:32:22 AM »

And Zeke:

A6M5 - 6,025 lbs - 229 sq ft wing area
0 ft RoC - 3400 fpm
wing loading 26.3 lbs/sq ft

Charge · « **Reply #286 on:** February 24, 2006, 03:54:23 AM »

Note that "enough lift" does not mean only wingarea but how much lift a wing can produce with wingarea + AoA. Those a/c mentioned have different tolerances for AoA...

On rudder authority of 109:
-Finnish pilots commented that 109 "flew on rails" and was a good gun platform yet stiff in handling.
-Holm (or his pal) commented the 109 to have an extremely effective rudder which gives a good yaw control while maneuvering.
-109 needed a constant pressure on rudder to keep it straight while flow in speeds where the trim tabs on rudder were not set.
To me it means that 109 has not very strong aerodynamical centering which support the comment on very good yaw control but contradicts a bit with "flew on rails" comment. Maybe the Finns were simply comparing it to their earlier rides which were slower and thus more maneuverable, so the 109 naturally helt like more stiff and stable.

-C+

PS. My comment on 109/190 handling qualities meant that they are quite hard to define and opinions are usually quite subjective.

Wilbus · « **Reply #287 on:** February 24, 2006, 04:09:54 AM »

It's quite intersting Sable that you have listed the 109 with its MAX takeoff weight and the P47 with about 4000lbs LESS then max takeoff weight.

The P47 has 39% more wing area but it's 200% the weight (109 MAX takeoff vs P47 "normal" combat weight). The P47 has got about 70% more engine power.

Yeah it is surprising as hell the P47 can keep up with the 109.

gatt · « **Reply #288 on:** February 24, 2006, 04:13:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
That really isn't the point Widewing. The point is most other planes, Pony, Jug and the Hog (Hog most of all pherhaps) feels like flying on rails compared to 109, 190, 205. Crab a C-hog and you won't need to trim at all more or less, like flying with constant combat trim.

Snip ...

So while I know the Jug and Pony can be beaten in the vertical using climbrate, we shouldn't have to.

Really ... out of curiosity: Pony, Jug and Spit drivers ... dont you feel on rails and easy mode flying those irons? Sometimes I think we are talking about two different sims.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #289 on:** February 24, 2006, 04:40:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
It's quite intersting Sable that you have listed the 109 with its MAX takeoff weight and the P47 with about 4000lbs LESS then max takeoff weight.

What is the normal takeoff weight of a G-14? The weight given seems to indicate the 109 carried a drop tank.

Max takeoff weight of the P-47 would include max drop tank size or max bombload.

gatt · « **Reply #290 on:** February 24, 2006, 05:15:16 AM »

Uhm, 7.320lbs means about 3.327Kg ....

Apar · « **Reply #291 on:** February 24, 2006, 05:17:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
Uh huh....

Well, you said give ya a howl...I did and you didn't drop by...

Too bad, because in between working with new players, several of us flew duels in the 109s. Ghosth and I had quite a lot of fun and managed not to flop all over the place.

You'll have another opportunity, I'll be in the TA again tomorrow evening as I have a training appointment at 9 PM.. Should be done by 10:00 PM or so. If you can't make it, no problem. I'm in the TA Wednesday, Thursday and Friday evenings...Every week. If I'm busy, look for Airvent, he's pretty good in 109s, I'm sure he can keep you occupied until I'm free.

My regards,

Widewing

I cancelled my account a couple of weeks ago. You really think I will renew it for YOU?? LOL I wouldn't take to much pride in clubbing 109 n00bs in the TA Widewing.

The only player worthwhile renewing my account for a couple of duells is the one that's not allowed to play this game anymore.

Let me refrase the invitation to you Widewing. Once you've reached Nath's level of 109 flying gimmy a howl. Otherwise just keep practising!

justin_g · « **Reply #292 on:** February 24, 2006, 05:29:37 AM »

Clean loaded weights(ie: full internal fuel only, no gondolas or bombs) & horsepower - from German sources:

Bf 109F-4: 2890 kg / 6371 lbs, 1331 hp
Bf 109G-6: 3196 kg / 7046 lbs, 1455 hp
Bf 109G-14: 3318 kg / 7301 lbs, 1775 hp with MW 50
Bf 109K-4: 3362 kg / 7412 lbs, 1825 hp(B4+MW50) - 1973 hp(C3+MW50)

The P-47D weights listed by Sable are in the range for the same load condition(full internal fuel and ammo), eg: P-47D(late razorback model) with full internal fuel and overload ammo = 14087 lbs & 2600 hp.

Sable · « **Reply #293 on:** February 24, 2006, 09:45:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
It's quite intersting Sable that you have listed the 109 with its MAX takeoff weight and the P47 with about 4000lbs LESS then max takeoff weight.

The P47 has 39% more wing area but it's 200% the weight (109 MAX takeoff vs P47 "normal" combat weight). The P47 has got about 70% more engine power.

Yeah it is surprising as hell the P47 can keep up with the 109.

The P-47 and P-51 weights are taken from Francis Dean's "Americas Hundred Thousand" which has detailed weight breakdowns for each aircraft - those numbers are for full internal fuel and ammo - i.e. combat takeoff weight. Note that both can shed over 1000 lbs of fuel in AH before takeoff, and the P-47 can shed another 500 lbs or so with the 6 gun loadout.

The number for the 109G-14 is based on the numbers listed on various German performance charts I have found for clean takeoff weight at full fuel and ammo. Note that the 109 is only carrying about 630 lbs of fuel total.

Btw, 300 is about 74% more then 174 and 13582 is about 85% more then 7320. So yes, the P-47 weights nearly twice as much, but it also has close to twice as much wing and power.

All three end up with wing loadings in the 38-40 lb/sq ft range when using 25% fuel (and the 6 gun option in the P-47s case), and the rates of climb are closer together at that point as well. In light of that, I don't think it's too shocking that they are all in the same ballpark - if we look at the stats for the Spit (an airplane that most agree is in a different class altogether) we can see a huge difference.

Widewing · « **Reply #294 on:** February 24, 2006, 10:16:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Apar
I cancelled my account a couple of weeks ago. You really think I will renew it for YOU?? LOL I wouldn't take to much pride in clubbing 109 n00bs in the TA Widewing.

The only player worthwhile renewing my account for a couple of duells is the one that's not allowed to play this game anymore.

Let me refrase the invitation to you Widewing. Once you've reached Nath's level of 109 flying gimmy a howl. Otherwise just keep practising!

Too bad... I enjoy good competition. If or when you sign-up again, drop by the TA when I'm on and we'll knock off the rust.

I've flown against or with just about all the top level sticks in this game. They all have my respect, and I'm pretty sure that I have their's too. Being the best does not matter. The goal is to have fun, not measure donuts.

Oh, and Airvent/Bovidea/Bighorn2 would give NathBDP all he can handle in 109s or anything else for that matter. Ghosth is a fixture in Aces High and I'm sure you know that.

As Trainers, we do not go around clubbing n00bs. We attempt to teach them enough so that they can hold their own in MA. We do that by challenging them according to their level, increasing the difficulty as they progress. The ultimate goal of a Trainer is to bring the new guy to a level that combined with his natural talent, he can come back to the TA some day and beat his Trainer. That's when you know that you've done your job well.

One of the newer fellows who will gain a reputation in the game is sumguy. Another up-and-coming fellow is Slushy. Both of these guys have a desire to be among the best and both have the talent to do so. As they gain experience, they will eventually be a dangerous foe for anyone.

We also encourage skilled pilots to visit the TA and share their abilities and knowledge with new players. Several gentlemen and one lady do so. By handle, a few of these are Nomak, Fester, Cav58, Schatzi and Airvent.

Since we are discussing the TA, let me mention what we do not appreciate, and this is directed to everyone.

What we do not like are the inflated ego types who figure they can come in, dazzle the n00bs and misbehave in the TA. These guys will have to deal with any Trainer(s) who may be in the room at the time. All Trainers are good pilots. Some are much better than just good. So, don't expect to escape with your hair. Moreover, be mindful of the MOTD and ROE and be a gentleman too, because the ultimate solution to the inflated ego type is .eject numbskull.

My regards,

Widewing

Wilbus · « **Reply #295 on:** February 24, 2006, 11:15:55 AM »

As far as them being in the same ballpark it really isn't so. The 109 is in the junior leauge against the elite as far as turn radius goes.

Ops, looked at your spit wing area of 39% more. Not sure why you brought that in though (part from me saying that both the spit and 109 were built on the same terms). The spit should outurn the 109, and it does.

As far as the P47 vs 109 goes the P47 does have bigger wing, 74% you say (I don't care to take the time to check it, I trust you). it weights 85% more. Twice as much power? Uhm, not really. Not even near I'd say. Not quite sure of what our K4 uses. It should be 1800-2000hp with WEP (Guessing 2000hp is the high ata version thus we should have 1800).

So 1800 vs 2500 in the P47, which is about 39% more HP.

39% more HP, 74% more wing area and (acording to your figures) 85% more weight. My weight would be down at around 6900 lbs for the combat loaded 109.

I don't think the P47 should be anywhere near the 109 in a turnfight.

Partialy deleted (HiTech)

Wilbus · « **Reply #296 on:** February 24, 2006, 12:18:02 PM »

LOL HT just came back in to edit my post and remove that myself

Might not have been possible due to the time that has elapsed though...

MANDO · « **Reply #297 on:** February 24, 2006, 01:31:01 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Apar

The only player worthwhile renewing my account for a couple of duells is the one that's not allowed to play this game anymore.

Nath got banned??

Sable · « **Reply #298 on:** February 24, 2006, 01:51:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wilbus
As far as the P47 vs 109 goes the P47 does have bigger wing, 74% you say (I don't care to take the time to check it, I trust you). it weights 85% more. Twice as much power? Uhm, not really. Not even near I'd say. Not quite sure of what our K4 uses. It should be 1800-2000hp with WEP (Guessing 2000hp is the high ata version thus we should have 1800).

You're right as far as the power - I overstated the difference. But ultimately power isn't a HUGE factor in turning performance.

Let me illustrate with this example. Take these three-

Spit V - 6525 lbs - 242 sq ft wing area - 27 lbs/sq ft wing loading
0ft RoC - about 3200fpm

Spit F.IX - 7480 lbs - 242 sq ft wing area - 30.9 lbs/sq ft wing loading
0ft RoC - about 3700fpm

Spit VIII - 7690 lbs - 242 sq ft wing area - 31.7 lbs/sq ft wing loading
0ft RoC - about 4600fpm

Here are Kweassa's latest turn trials results for these three:

Quote

Spitfire Mk.V:         157.0m
Spitfire Mk.IX:        174.1m
Spitfire Mk.VIII:         170.7m

Notice that the mk.V with the worst rate of climb (by a massive margin compared to the VIII), still outturns the others by a handy margin due to it's wingloading advantage.

Also note that in the case of the VIII vs. the IX, their wing loadings are very close - within about 2-3% of each other - but the VIII has a big edge in power, acceleration, rate of climb. The end result - a very slight advantage in favor of the Mk VIII.

What this tells me is that lift is much more important then excess thrust in determining how well these aircraft will turn. As we saw above the P-47, P-51, and 109G-14 are all pretty close in wingloading, and so as a result they are fairly close in turning ability. The Bf109 still has the edge, but once you figure in different loads, flap useage, different E states, and pilot ability it can go either way.

This squares pretty well with most of the combat reports I've read, and with what I see in the game.

Airscrew · « **Reply #299 on:** February 24, 2006, 02:04:44 PM »

ok, so I'm flying the 190-D9, doing about 260mph, about 8k. I pull back on the stick to climb, nose gets about 10-15 degress up, (guessing really, it wasnt very far, just beginning the climb) and the plane instantly flips to the left and upside down. hit the rudder and roll back over. I did this several times at speeds from about 250 to 280. whether I moved the stick slowly or quickly, instant flip, left wing drops, plane rolls upside down. At 300mph I can pull up in to a climb but the stall horn sounds as soon as I pull back on the stick. I can finish the loop but I better keep the wings level or I'll flip again. This is what kills me in the MA almost everytime in the D9 because in the MA I'm on the deck, pull up to miss a tree, and flip boom. Is it the FM or the stick?