Relaxation of Alcohol laws in UK results in FALL in crime

[beet1e]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/08022006/140/violent-crime-falls-booze-laws.html

Violent crime appears to have fallen since the relaxation of liquor licensing laws in England and Wales.Home Office figures out today are expected to show that serious violent crime dropped by 21% during the final three months of last year, compared to 2004. Many police forces reported a drop in the number of alcohol-related arrests over Christmas.

I haven't seen any analysis of this trend, so it's too early to judge.

In recent weeks, it has been suggested on this board that if the UK were to ban alcohol completely, there would be a large reduction in crime. I argued against this, based on the experiences of the American 18th Amendment (Prohibition) of 1920-1933, and a similar ban on alcohol in Finland at roughly the same time. In both cases, it was a disaster - crime went up not down, and alcohol related deaths went up not down, as people resorted to a clumsily made makeshift alcohol substitute.

Now we see that changing the law in the other direction is reducing crime, not increasing it. Now it just so happens that I was out on Friday night with a friend at my local pub, called the Duke of Wellington. We usually have 2-3 beers, not more, and a few games of cribbage if we feel like it. Closing time used to be 11pm, but as 11pm came around the bell was not rung and no-one called time. "Oh, they must have an extension", we both agreed, and ordered a couple more and carried on with the cribbage. 15-2, 15-4... From about 1130pm, folks started drifting away. Time was called at midnight, so we drank up and left.

The difference now is that whereas many folks would order extra drinks to beat closing time and then guzzle them down between 11pm and 1120pm (drinking up time), now there's no need for that. It was quite a peaceful evening in there, whereas in the old days there'd always be someone pissed by 10pm, in their quest to drink as much as they could before 11pm.

I always knew that banning alcohol completely would be a disaster, and that a relaxation of the laws (as in continental Europe) was the way to go. Looks like I was right. Again.

[SOB]

Bar cribbage?  Sounds like a real rowdy place.  And yeah, trying to separate people from their drugs can tend to make them disagreeable.  Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.

Allow me to also make a prediction.  The next time you're out and about, bring along a cricket bat and use it to clobber the first person you see.  I predict they won't like it.

[Tarmac]

I always thought that it was odd that bars closed at 11 over there.  When I was over in college, it was a big adjustment to my drinking routine.  An American college kid doesn't even leave for the party until 9 or 10 pm, so you've gotta move the drinking schedule up quite a bit in England... usually we'd just go for a late dinner and stay until close.  

Is there a historical reason for the 11pm last call, or is it just how it's always been?  Most bars here (varying by state) don't close until at least 1 or 2, in Chicago 4 am.  I haven't been to Vegas since turning 21, but I'd bet they serve very late, if not all night.  

The one advantage of closing at 11 was they throw you out for your drunken stumble home while you were still a happy drunk... very few people had time to work up to puking, passing out, or belligerence.

[Holden McGroin]

The USA learned this in 1933.

[beet1e]

Hi SOB! Nah, not rowdy. We were in the "old man's bar" in any case. All that was missing was pints of Mild...

Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.

No, I had help - the millions of Americans who lived through Prohibition.

Is there a historical reason for the 11pm last call, or is it just how it's always been? Most bars here (varying by state) don't close until at least 1 or 2, in Chicago 4 am. I haven't been to Vegas since turning 21, but I'd bet they serve very late, if not all night. - Tarmac

I don't have all the answers, but in the 1970s last call used to be 1030pm except Fri/Sat when it was 11pm. I went to plenty of parties back then - I lived with two Irish guys and two Irish girls! The parties began around midnight, after the last stragglers were back from the pub. I knew Chicago quite well - Irving Pk district about 4 blocks west of Pulaski - and the bars around there closed at 1pm - not that I made a habit of being there till then.

[Yeager2]

Hitech et, all.

Why do we have to deal with this guy?

Beetle, you certainly love placing anything "American" below you.

It's quite sad.

What are you really envious of?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Yeager2
Hitech et, all.

Why do we have to deal with this guy?

Beetle, you certainly love placing anything "American" below you.

It's quite sad.

What are you really envious of?

I don't know what you're talking about. I posted an article about crime trends in Britain c2005/06. I noted the events surrounding Prohibition 1920-33, and the results of a similar ban in Finland which led me to believe that banning alcohol would be a retrograde step. In what way does that make me "anti-American"?  Do my remarks make me "anti-Finnish" as well?

As for "Why do we have to deal with this guy?", you don't. When you see my name as the thread starter, you can skip to the next thread. But you chose to read my thread. That was your choice.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by SOB
Bar cribbage?  Sounds like a real rowdy place.  And yeah, trying to separate people from their drugs can tend to make them disagreeable.  Congrats on figuring that out all by yourself.

Allow me to also make a prediction.  The next time you're out and about, bring along a cricket bat and use it to clobber the first person you see.  I predict they won't like it.

[Mickey1992]

I remember thinking that the reason for the pubs closing at 2300 was to allow working folks to get their arses home and get sleep in order to go to work the next day.

With the extended pub hours, has there been any indication that people are taking more sickies than they used to?

[Ripsnort]

Yes, more alcohol makes a calmer crowd, Beat-el learned that from millions of Americans(Here comes the part where he says "Ohhh! I got you! Hook in your mouth, neener neener! ).....however its killing more Brits than ever before:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4581530.stm

Big rise in liver cirrhosis cases  
 
Cirrhosis is linked to heavy drinking
Excessive alcohol consumption is being blamed for a big rise in deaths from the liver disease cirrhosis in Britain.
While deaths from the disease are falling elsewhere, a Lancet study shows they have soared in England, Scotland and Wales since the 1950s.

Total recorded alcohol consumption in the UK is estimated to have doubled between 1960 and 2002.

The study was carried out by King's College London and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

Experts said the UK Government had not done enough to try to tackle the problem.

 

New licensing laws came in at the end of last year allowing bars, pubs and clubs in England and Wales to serve alcohol around the clock.

The researchers calculated death rates for liver cirrhosis using data from the World Health Organization.

They found steady increases in death rates in Scotland, England and Wales during the 1970s.

This accelerated in the 1980s, and again from the nineties onwards.

Bucking the trend

In contrast, death rates for both men and women in other European countries declined by 20% to 30% from the early 1970s.

Between the periods 1987-1991, and 1997-2001, male deaths from cirrhosis in Scotland more than doubled, and in England and Wales they rose by over two-thirds.

 

For women, rates increased by a half in the same period.

Overall, liver cirrhosis death rates in Scotland are now about double that of the European comparison group.

While alcohol consumption has soared in the UK in recent years, other European countries - particularly the mainly wine-drinking countries of Southern Europe - have recorded a drop in consumption.

Researcher Dr David Leon said: "Current alcohol policies in Britain should be assessed by the extent to which they can successfully halt the adverse trends in liver cirrhosis mortality.

"The situation in Scotland warrants particular attention."

Priority needed

Also writing in The Lancet, Dr Robin Room, of Stockholm University, accused the UK government of failing to tackle the issue of excessive alcohol consumption.

  Through the development of a more civilised approach to drinking and the tougher powers to tackle badly run premises, there should be a positive impact on health

Department of Health


'I was drinking too much'  

He said: "The government has turned a determined blind eye to the problem and has failed to make the reduction of the population's alcohol intake a policy goal.

"Through the new alcohol licensing law and the official guidance on it, the national government has also done its best to tie the hands of local government on this issue."

Professor Ian Gilmore, chairman of the Royal College of Physician's Alcohol Committee and liver specialist at Liverpool University Hospital said it was not surprising that deaths from cirrhosis were rising sharply.

He said: "This is supported by day-to-day observation on the wards, where cirrhosis has become commonplace in men and women in their 20s and 30s.

"While we support many aspects of the government's alcohol strategy, the bottom line is that alcohol-related harm will continue to rise until we address the fundamental problem that we are drinking too much as a nation.

"The proven way to reverse that is to tackle the unpalatable issues of price and availability."

Government response

A Department of Health spokesperson said action was being taken to cut deaths from liver disease as set out in the Alcohol Harm Reduction Strategy.

This included a campaign to promote responsible drinking among young people, a clampdown on irresponsible promotion, and extra funding for services for people with alchohol problems.

"The research in the Lancet was undertaken before the new licensing laws came in. The new laws are just one part of the solution.

"We believe that, through the development of a more civilised approach to drinking and the tougher powers to tackle badly run premises, there should be a positive impact on health."

[lazs2]

I would not like to live in a place that was so depressing that the only way to socialize was to drink.   That the only way to have fun was to drink...

Heck... they can't drive around cause the gas costs too much and the roads are bad and wet all the time... they can't go shooting cause...  well..

they can't play outdoors or they will get moldy... they can't watch TV cause they have little tiny TV's and crappy stations...

You can eat out or drink out...  how depressing.

lazs

[Dago]

Maybe you let them get even drunker, they pass out in the bar and sleep it off there rather than staggering out and getting in trouble in the streets before passing out in a gutter?

Maybe if we just relaxed all the laws there would be less crime, seems reasonable, less laws to break, less crimes reported?  Same stuff going on, just not illegal anymore, so less reported crime.  Wow, that is just basic liberal logic.  

[lazs2]

If they aren't home then the burglars don't have to beat em up or chase em out of the house.  thus.... causing less crime.

lazs

[Replicant]

I'm rather surprised Beetle, though I'm sure some places they'll still want something to do in the early hours.  

There's many places here that are open all night and even though Germany (or is it just Bavaria) have an intense drinking culture I don't ever see any trouble at all.  My annual medical actually noted my liver is improving here lol!

@Yeager, I didn't note any anti-American post.

[Furball]

Originally posted by lazs2
I would not like to live in a place that was so depressing that the only way to socialize was to drink.   That the only way to have fun was to drink...

Heck... they can't drive around cause the gas costs too much and the roads are bad and wet all the time... they can't go shooting cause...  well..

they can't play outdoors or they will get moldy... they can't watch TV cause they have little tiny TV's and crappy stations...

You can eat out or drink out...  how depressing.

lazs

thats funny. very true except the tv comment, our tv is better than yours - it never ceases to amaze me the crappy quality of american recorded programmes.