US Army brutality in Kosovo

[Hajo]

Heres' another point of thought....we all knew after ww2 what hitler did to the Jews and anyone else who opposed him.  I believe the estimates were around 6 million...but believe it or not....Josef Stalin made Adolph Hitler look like Mary Tyler Moore in that respect.....it is estimated that Stalin was responsible for the execution of 30 million!  If I were invited to the Kremlin by good old Joe....if he invited me to the basement to see his Billiards table.....I'd be worried <G> A great number of the executions were done in the Kremlin basement....

[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Dowding]

Hajo - I posted a topic in the O-club called 'Communism in Post-Communist Russia' a month back. It dealt with Stalin and his 'activities', turned into a good discussion in the end.

Stalin was a monster when you look at the deaths he caused. But some people are able to turn a blind eye to this because of what he achieved - turning Russia into an industrial state, rather than an agrarian one.

Maverick - in no country in the world could you call the whole population barbarians - there are always innocents to protect, even if they are only children. And its always the innocent who suffer the most.

You're right, Staga, sadly.

------------------
Dowding

99th 'Raging Rooks'

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-20-2000).]

[leonid]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
Hajo - I posted a topic in the O-club called 'Communism in Post-Communist Russia' a month back. It dealt with Stalin and his 'activities', turned into a good discussion in the end.

Stalin was a monster when you look at the deaths he caused. But some people are able to turn a blind eye to this because of what he achieved - turning Russia into an industrial state, rather than an agrarian one. ...

Hm.  Not sure what you mean by 'some people', Dowding.  Millions of Soviet citizens would be more than 'some people' by my definition.  And no, they didn't turn a 'blind eye', Dowding.  It was an internal  conflict, and still is, within their soul.  A conflict of emotions, judgement.  Life is never as easy as people would wish it to be, and this is something many Russians know only too well.  Dowding, you appear in danger of almost being a little too simplistic with your assessment.  It would be better to just accept and respect how many Russians feel about their leader of the past.  Their feelings don't imply that they are just as cruel and heartless as Stalin, anymore than a gentle person who is the offspring of an abusive parent.  

Intellectualizing helps to address most problems, but to get to the core of a problem in humanity you need to look at the heart.  In this case, the Russian heart.

[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 09-20-2000).]

[Toad]

IN a hurry and could only skim these..will try to re-read in depth later tonite.

Dowding, do a little research for me on the Versailles treaty in the mean time please?


Which country came to the negotiations with a non-punitive set of goals?

Which country opposed most reparations from Germany?

Which country gave more in LOANS to Germany (that were NEVER repaid) than it received in reparations?

I can find this for you, but I am in  a bit of a rush....and you'll enjoy the search.

[Hajo]

Toad.....most of the War debts from WWI and WWII were canceled by the US....most did not have to repay the US.  The US and, rightly so forgave these debts because it knew that major rebuilding in these countries had to be done after the wars.  They dind'n want a repeat of WWI, which Wilson saw early, but alas no one else recognized.

As far as analyzing what we humans do....no matter what one thinks...it all boils down to right or wrong.  Unfortunately we've gotten to the point where we've made it possible to make any action look favorable, no matter how wrong it might have been.  Is the human race more intelligent now?  Or have they just learned how to cloud the issue?  Spin doctors?  Psychology can do just as much harm as good, especially in life, there are more then a few points of view.  Mankind has managed to "muddle" thinking.  Make it less clear then it would have been say, one hundred years ago.  It still boils down to right or wrong....a law in physics states "For ever action there is an opposite and equal reaction".  Mankind has manged to change that somewhat, now it's "for every action there is an opposite and more powerful reaction".  Looks like Physics doesn't apply there. WE must use reason and logic, all actions must be considered before taken, because the reaction might just be what we don't want.  Unfortunately mankind only occasionally can see "down the road" in time a few days at a time....maybe we should look farther down the road in the future before any actions again cause a greater reaction.

[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 09-20-2000).]

[Dowding]

That's what I meant Leonid, and I understand that Russians can be in two minds about Stalin. I just didn't really want to get into the detail again after going through it all in that other off-topic discussion. In fact, it was also my point that many Russians see Stalin as an all-time great leader, if I remember correctly.   As for 'turning a blind eye', perhaps that is too easy a cliche to describe how Stalin's admirers arrive at the position they do. 'Apologists' may be a better word - they can excuse what he did because of his achievements. Maybe thats how Nazi apologists can still think Hitler a great man. Hitler and Stalin were very similar (something they both recognised), and perhaps their modern day supporters are. I don't know.

I respect what anyone thinks - even Nazis. But understand? That's a little harder...

Perhaps you're right Toad - my history lessons were taken many years ago and I can't remember the fine detail of the peace 'negotiations'. Sure Wilson didn't want such harsh reparations to be paid, but did he truly understand the consequences? I don't think anyone could really foresee WW2 when Versailles was signed. Especially considering the idealism of the 20s - 165 nations signed an agreement never again to wage war on each other. That lasted about two minutes. Again, it's easy now to see where WW2 stemmed from - but then? I don't think so - there was no precedent for what happened from 1914-18. Besides, the world's attention swung from Germany to Russia and the 'Red Menace'.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-20-2000).]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
Perhaps you're right Toad - my history lessons were taken many years ago and I can't remember the fine detail of the peace 'negotiations'. Sure Wilson didn't want such harsh reparations to be paid, but did he truly understand the consequences? I don't think anyone could really foresee WW2 when Versailles was signed. Again, it's easy now to see where WW2 stemmed from - but then? I don't think so -
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-20-2000).]

Oh, come on Dowding...do a little research. Try google.com and put in Treaty of Versailles or just Wilson.

It's not a question of anyone being "right"...it's simply historical fact.

I don't want to tip the surpise ending of the research for you, but I will say that what I just quoted from your post above pretty much ignores the written record on Versailles.

You DO know which countries wanted to absolutely PUNISH Germany after WWI don't you? You can't have missed THAT in your schools; you live in one of those countries.

While Wilson may never make my list of "5 Best Presidents" I admire his goals at the end of WWI. In fact, of all the allied politicians in attendance at Versailles, I think the BEST hopes of avoiding another World War were without doubt Wilson's ideas.

I'm on the road using a slow modem, but if you can't find some stuff by the time I get home to my cable modem, I'll be happy to find you those enlightening references.

 

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Hajo:
Toad.....most of the War debts from WWI and WWII were canceled by the US....most did not have to repay the US[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 09-20-2000).]

Yes, Hajo, I know. I'm reasonably familiar with US aid to Europe after BOTH World Wars...and the fact that most debt was never repaid, but forgiven. Just another part of our b*stard nature, I guess.

My point was that even while Germany was making WWI Reparation payments after the War, the US was LOANING Germany more money than the Versailles Treaty alloted to the US in Reparations.

Further, we received no loan payments during that time or after and we did not make an international incident out of it. We forgave it....as we did for our allies as well.

In short....WE were not the ones hammering the Germans into the ground after WWI.

I have a nice reference for this situation on my home computer. I'll have to see if I bookmarked it.

[Dowding]

I think you misunderstand me, Toad. I KNOW that the aim of Versailles was to punish and humiliate Germany. That's why I wrote: "I can understand (but not justify) why the world wanted the reparations - WW1 shocked them, the loser had to lose all." I also know that the people who dreamt up the treaty were Britain, France etc. I even had to learn the principle clauses of the treaty for exams at school - so I am familiar with the background.

The point I was trying to make was that even if Wilson believed that the treaty was not a good thing, and would lead to an uneasy peace (I admit my knowledge of the attitude of Wilson is not exactly exhaustive), could anyone from back then have truly foreseen how bad things would turn out? I doubt this is true with Wilson, and as for the countries directly responsible for drawing up the treaty, they definitely could not imagine it leading to a second world war (why would they do it if they knew that 30 years down the line things would be even worse?) In fact, one of the reasons it was so harsh was to prevent Germany ever becoming a threat to their respective empires. For what good it did. As I also said before, what precedent was there for drawing up a peace after the wholesale destruction of 1914-18? They were all on virgin territory, I think, and I can understand why they created such a harsh treaty.

[Toad]

...and my point is that the US opposed harsh reparations. If you read some of Wilson's work, I think you'll find he warned of the repercussions and his warning included possible further world war.

Us "over sexed, over paid & over here" Yanks are alwasy easy targets for cheap shots, as this thread and many others have demonstrated.

However, when you do a little digging into history one usually finds that we have "given" far more than we have ever "taken".

[Hajo]

Let us also not forget, that after WW2 the Marshall Plan rebuilt most of Europe, and kept a great many people from starving in Europe.  The Marshall plan was a master stroke that repaired many European nations economy, in an indirect way.

Now as to Stalin....history has shown us he was a complete failure......Communism, his communism<( I don't know if Karl Marx would agree with it)....but communism has died!  Many people in communist nations not only suffered through atrocities, but shortages of necessities such as food, medical attention, education, and just quality of life.  in the mid 1980s' I have a friend who came from Poland, his parents came to visit on a ten week Visa.  Anyway, I had the pleasure taking him, along with his mother to a grocery store.  His mother couldn't believe her eyes!  The first thing she asked us when seeing all the fresh vegetables and fruits was" How many are we allowed?"  When we told her the answer tears came to her eyes, and she said" It's really true what I've heard about the US!  There were actually tears in her eyes, she could not believe that anyone could have the food, public services etc. that we have.  she had to use the same phone that 8 other families were using in her building.  She couldn't believe that most of us have more then two phones in our homes, not to mention automobiles, Shopping Malls etc.  It took about 70 years for communism as we know it to fail.  The poor economy that communism breeds just can't compete in a world class market with world class economies.  Give me a free market anytime....where the best rise to the top, and those who work hardest and smartest are rewarded for their efforts <G>

[StSanta]

Hajo, let's not forget that the US sorta got people employed, got a market for their huge post war industry wares either  .

A stroke of genius, with all parts winning, the Marshall plan.

SOme have speculated that countres that were spared devastating bombing really gained short term, but lost long term, because their machine park wasn't renewed. Pretty interesting reading.

--
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[leonid]

Hajo,

Regarding communism, much of what you say is true.  Now, its a common belief that the Soviets defeated Germany despite communism.  Word is out that the more foremost historians of Russia/Soviet Union are beginning to believe that the Soviets actually defeated Germany because of communism.  In other words, the political structure of democracy could not have withstood the type of attack that the Soviets endured from Nazi Germany.  Actually, this makes sense when you realize that communism is really socialism on a permanent war footing.

[Dowding]

 

Originally posted by Hajo:

Now as to Stalin....history has shown us he was a complete failure...

If you do study what Stalin did to Russia (even the cursory research I've done into the man), I don't think you'll come to the conclusion that he was a failure. He turned Russia into a super-power; don't forget that he died in 1953 when Russia was at the height of its power. Communism falied, not Stalin.

I'm not a supporter of the man in any way, mind you, and believe the benefit he brought to Russia can never outweigh the suffering he brought in its wake.

As for the state of Russia in communist control - I visited Moscow and Leningrad in 1990, shortly before the coup. Most of what you say was true, and there was so much poverty. But there was a pride within the Russian people, that even as an 11 year old schoolboy, I could appreciate. Despite the differences between our countries at that time, the people I met (both my age and much older) were genuinely friendly to us. I have very fond memories of that visit.

As for the US and WW2 - I've never been anything other than grateful for what the US did. We could never have cleansed the world of Nazism without them. They did a great job in rebuilding afterwards, too. It did make the States wealthy though - the 50s were completely different for the US and UK.

Taking economic advantage of post-war rebuilding didn't stop there; it happens to day in Bosnia and Kosovo. The US, UK and rest of Europe are always struggling for the right to lucrative building contracts for construction companies int their respective countries. Makes good sense, really - everyone's a winner.

[Hajo]

Dowding, in my humble opinion, anyone that has to execute his enemies out of fear, in my opinion is a failure....simple as that. Stalin made mother russia an industrial force, but at what cost?  and who paid the price, it wasn't Stalin!  He made his own people suffer and endure his iron fisted rule.  Of course after the failures of the tsarist regimes, I guess maybe Stalin could look good.  the people probably had pride at what Russia had become, but they had no idea how individuals outside the Russian Sphere were living!  They probably thought that everyone lived as poorly as they, it wasn't until mass communications became availabel to the entire world, including communist bloc states that people behind the "iron curtain" started questioning their way of life, and asking "why can't we have these things also?" If Stalins communism, and if Stalin was a sucess, there isn't anything left of either to demonstrate or even  suggest stalin was anywhere near the success some thought he might have been.  He was succesful at enslaving people of other nations, was very succesful against the Hungarians during the revolution, great use of tanks against the people of hungary, don't think they thought Stalin was succesful at anything!  And if he were so sucesful, why the electrified fences and guard towers to keep people in?  Not to mention the assasinations of anyone who seemed to be a threat to him politically.  That my friend , is in no way a sucess. <G>