Guns, the other side

[Rebel]

 

Originally posted by Igloo:
Do you seriously believe that if one law is changed, all others will have to as well?  Give me a break.  

Slavery was not outlawed by the constitution either, infact it was practically supported.  The right to bear (it was a typo) arms comes from a time when the British Empire was trying to crush a rebellian in its American colonies.  Those circumstances no longer arise in todays enviornment and the right to bear arms is no longer needed.  Do you seriously believe that if gun restrictions were placed on guns, more people would die from guns???   Do the math, it's that simple.

Nations need to adapt.  If one of those all powerfull 244 laws need changing, change it.  Adapt to the world you live in, it is not 1770 anymore.

So, what exactly are you saying?

They we're stupid for wanting to own guns?

While it's true that society has changed in the last couple-hundred years, we really don't need to ban guns.

The only result of this action would be basically giving the guns to the very people you want to keep them from!  How long before a cop goes bad and sells a few weapons from the back room for a nice chunk of change?  
How long before the Mexicans and Columbians get wind of this and start up a black market multiple times larger then they already have?

What most people don't realize is the futility of this whole argument.  The Anti-gun crowds will continue to squeak and moan, but the simple fact is, that's all they do.

I'm all for restricting gun ownership, this CAN tone the problem down.  At least it eliminates sources from which the criminal can attain one.  
But there's always the black market, and as long as that exists, and guns can be attained by criminals, who the hell are you to tell me that I can't defend myself?

In Oklahoma we have a thing called the "Make my day" law.  No toejam.  You break into someone's house, you can get shot.  I am friends with an older gal who spread a burlgar through her hallway with a double barrelled 10 gauge.  She unloaded both barrels on his ass.    She then called the cops.


I have a gun collection.  I have a Colt 1911A1 .45 ACP for home defense.  If you come into my house uninvited, and put me in danger, you WILL leave in a body bag.  



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-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"

[Tac]

"They we're stupid for wanting to own guns?"

Short and sweet, YES.

"Mexicans and Columbians"

These nations do not produce or deal in weapons, either legally or illegally. The "market" you refer to is of a different nature.

In fact its the other way around. The US is the chief exporter of illegal weapons into these countries (France being #1 LEGAL exporter). BTW, its "Colombians" not "Columbians". US educational system fails once again *grin*

"But there's always the black market, and as long as that exists, and guns can be attained by criminals, who the hell are you to tell me that I can't defend myself?"

I'll try to dig up the statistics for you, but way more than half of all crimes in the us are commited with legally acquired weapons. That they were stolen or sold out to criminals by their legal owners is another matter though.. but the guns STILL came from legal sources. If weapons are banned, then ANYONE with a weapon will have to acquire them illegally, and that in itself is not only hard, but it will make it easier for the authorities to solve any crimes and probably close down the source of the murder weapon.

"In Oklahoma we have a thing called the "Make my day" law. No toejam. You break into someone's house, you can get shot. "

We have the same law in Colombia too. If you have your property fenced (as 99.9% of the homes are) and someone jumps into your yard you can shove a grenade on them if you want. My country's case is a perfect example of what a "let people have guns" law would do: Home owners are armed... nearly all of them in fact. Result: The robbers now dont come into your home to steal, they know they will be confronted; so they simply kill everyone and then steal.. and they come with MUCH heavier weaponry than the homeowner will ever have. Hell, before I left a home 10 blocks from where I lived was hit by machine gun and grenade fire before it was robbed. Luckily only the dogs were killed, the owners were out watching a movie in the theater.

Sad part is, we have much stricter gun ownership laws over there, its just that our police doesnt have any resources to control and enforce them... its nearly impossible to buy a gun legally. So you see, restriction is not the answer, and enforcement of those restrictions, when applied as in the case of the US where the police is effective, is not the solution either.

So from what I've seen, if people want a gun, they will get it. Black market, whatever. By denying gun ownership, in fact, by making it illegal to own guns you will make the average gun-totting crook, kid gangster, madman, etc, have a REAL hard time getting one... and keeping it if they ever get it.

The black market will be there yes... but tell me, how hard is it for you to get today, on the current black market, a thing that is strictly illegal? Say.. buy mustard gas or the components for it? Hmmm?

[Maverick]

TAC,

your post was all run together so I won't quote it. I think I got most of the point of your post however.

1 Mexico does deal in guns. If you have cash you can buy anything you want in Mexico. half the time you can buy it directly from the Federales. Point in case. The car belonging to the Chief of Police in Tucson was stollen. Guess where it was found. Yep and a Federale (Mexican Federal Police Officer) was driving it in Nogales Sonora. The pistol that she stupidly left in the car was not recovered.


I have already made this point in other posts but it is still true.

We tried to legislate morality by banning alcohol in the US. It was going to make it a much better society since most of societies problems were thought to be alcohol related. Not only was the ban a dismal failure in creating a "better society" it created a massive number of federal felons who made alcohol, sold it, drank it and transported it. Flaunting the law became a national pastime. The government tried to eliminate it but couldn't even put a dent in the business. The secondary result was the explosive growth of organized crime. We really made a big improvement there. That was the black market in operation.

If you want to make a black market, ban the possession of something. It will be there shortly. A good example is the drug situation. If you have the desire to buy it you can get any number of banned substances from marijuana through heroin and methamphetimins. Crack is another popular banned item. It is against the law to have any amount of it but you can buy it just about anywhere.

As far as using a firearm in defense of property. Do not depend on hearsay from anyone as to the legality of it. In Arizona you are not authorized to use deadly force of any type to defend property. If you are in your home and the intruder is breaking in you must be in fear of your life before you can use deadly force. That means there is a higher level of caution required before you are justified in killing someone even in your home. Your home is still (at least for now) considered the last place of retreat you have. In other words the law says you cannot reasonably be expected to retreat away from your home from an intruder. It is a fuzzy situation but it is where you are literaly wth your back to the wall and can't go any further to get away.

As far as violent home invasions are concerned. They happened before now and are not a new development. It has been long known by criminals that a witness will have a distressing tendency to testify. No witnesses, no testimony. This type of person preys on whoever they want and whenever they want. It is up to you to deal with it as they can do want they came to do before the police can get there. They are not detered by the phone and 911 either.

I prefer to be in a position to be able to defend myself and my family. Burglars and home invaders do not magically disapear if guns are gone.

For anyone. If you don't like firearms, don't get one. You are not forced to get one. Just don't force your choice on anyone else.

Mav

[Rebel]

<<The black market will be there yes... but tell me, how hard is it for you to get today, on the current black market, a thing that is strictly illegal? Say.. buy mustard gas or the components for it? Hmmm?>>

Not hard at all.  It's friggin EASY!

Any joker can stroll into LA nowdays and pick up an AK-47 for 300 bucks.  Know where they get it?  Bulk freighters, the majority of them from the Middle East.


You won't truck bomb components of a Mustard Gas bomb across the Mexican line, but ship several vans with false floors.  Problem solved.  Let's see here- cost of the vans, plus the bomb components themselves, plus the modifications to the van.....that makes it about a cool mil.  Any terrorist cell with enough malice and money could pull that off.  A nuclear device would be tricker, but Russia I hear is having a 2 for 1 sale right now.

Bottom line is- it would take a serious effort, but a determined buyer is hardly ever turned down by prospective sellers.

As far as the "Columbia doesn't deal in guns" you're WAY off.  Dark warehouse meetings are held every night.  Cocaine is Columbia's biggest export, yes, but as an added bonus, the cartel just LOVES to trade weapons.  Hell, half the time if they need some quick cash, they'll trade cocaine for an arsenal, then sell that arsenal for about a 100% profit.  This is due to the fact that they get Cocaine at cost (damn near slave labor) and can afford to give it away.

 <<So from what I've seen, if people want a gun, they will get it. Black market, whatever. By denying gun ownership, in fact, by making it illegal to own guns you will make the average gun-totting crook, kid gangster, madman, etc, have a REAL hard time getting one... and keeping it if they ever get it.>>

This DOES NOT WORK!  Never has!
Besides, I thought you said everyone in your neighborhood is armed!  Sounds like you  restrictions aren't restrictive enough.  Either that or your government never took the restrictions seriously.  You say that your police force doesn't have the resources neccessary to enforce such restricions.  Where does their money come from?  In America, if there is a desperate need for it, it usually gets a Federal grant and toejam gets done.  Nevermind that it throws us deeper in the whole, but more worthless projects have been performed in the aim of "improving America".  Like the 12 million bucks spent on Brazillian alpine slides for the kiddies.


  Look at the old west in American history.  Basically everybody had a gun.  For the most part it was pretty peaceful except for the occasional outlaw out to make a quick buck.  And they roamed in gangs.  They were usually stopped cold after a month or two.  Every single one.  Even Billy the Kid couldn't get away.




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-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"

[Tac]

"As far as the "Columbia doesn't deal in guns" you're WAY off. Dark warehouse meetings are held every night. Cocaine is Columbia's biggest export, yes, but as an added bonus, the cartel just LOVES to trade weapons. Hell, half the time if they need some quick cash, they'll trade cocaine for an arsenal, then sell that arsenal for about a 100% profit. This is due to the fact that they get Cocaine at cost (damn near slave labor) and can afford to give it away."

Bud, I AM from Colombia, and I KNOW what i'm talking about. That weapons do pass through the country as part of black market trade, yes.. so does everything else.. its the curse of being the only south american country with access to the atlantic and pacific ocean. That the cartel deal in weapons... extremely unlikely, they need all those guns "at home" to defend themselves from the Army and Police. Any guns you find in the US linked to any cartels you can bet your bellybutton they were ACQUIRED in the US. Its easier than shipping them across the border eh??

"Not hard at all. It's friggin EASY!"

Heh, ok go and try and make some nerve gas. You will find the feds on your bellybutton real quick. A Terrorist group is a VERY different thing from the average joe that bought a gun at the store. And guess who does almost all of the gun-involved murders? Average joe himself! That is my point. The Prohibition is a totally different scenario.. unless people start lobbying for their right to bear cracked, sharp ended whiskey bottles that is.

"This DOES NOT WORK! Never has!
Besides, I thought you said everyone in your neighborhood is armed! Sounds like you restrictions aren't restrictive enough. Either that or your government never took the restrictions seriously. You say that your police force doesn't have the resources neccessary to enforce such restricions. Where does their money come from? In America, if there is a desperate need for it, it usually gets a Federal grant and toejam gets done. Nevermind that it throws us deeper in the whole, but more worthless projects have been performed in the aim of "improving America". Like the 12 million bucks spent on Brazillian alpine slides for the kiddies."

You should not make assumptions about things you are completely ignorant about. We do have gun shops down there.. but the process, paperwork, restrictions and requirements to buy a gun, register it and acquire it legaly is what makes it damn impossible. Unlike a 3 day wait here in any US gun shop and filling out 3 pages and you get yourself a 9mm carbine or a shotgun or an assault rifle. Most people have their weapons because they were purchased before the gun control laws were passed... and most of us have weapons because the country has been in undeclared civil war for over 60 years. Our Police is a reaction force, not a preventive one... and since the police, arriving at a "weapons used to defend household" situation knows that under the circumstances, taking away the weapons from the household that had to use it to defend itself would in fact be more dangerous for the household and the community. IF the police comes at all that is.

The only thing keeping this from happening here is your law enforcment..and the fact that the U.S. HAS the resources and is not under constant internal war.

Is that how you want the U.S. to become?

REDNECKS for PRESIDENT!    

[Rebel]

First of all, I never said anything about making nerve gas here in the US.  I said ship it in parts concealed in trucks.  It's happened.  I've spoken with several law enforcement officers who have seen it.  

Regarding Columbia- ya never said how long ago the laws were put in place.  Sorry for the assumption.  My bad.

Regarding your state of un-declared civil war-

Seems to me like the perfect market for some high grade weapons exportation.  I've seen the busted shipments.  I've seen assault rifles, grenades, the whole 9 yards.  Hell I even saw a shipment of old M63 Stoners that someone got a hold of!  

But the issue still stands- my opinion is that making them illegal would only escalate the situation, and make the problem worse.  

After all, it's not so bad right now.  Spout all the statistics you want, but the guns aren't the real problem.  American society has been goin' downhill for years, and it's finally catchin up.  

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-Rebel
JG2 "Richtofen"
"You Rebel Scum"

[Tac]

Heh, I think all I can say to that is:

Control has been tried..failed. Restriction...tried and failed.

Only thing left to try is a complete ban.

 

[Igloo]

Well, first of all, I wouldn't be one to brag about knowing someone who killed someone.  

"We're stupid for wanting guns?"  Where do you get that from? I didn't say that.

I rest my case with this question.  Will more people die if guns are restricted?  The answer is no.

Yes, I am from the "outside" looking in.  I am Canadian.  I believe that this gives me an unbiased point of view with more room to see things clearly.  You've been brought up in a gun gung-ho society, I have not - Thank God.

The right to bear arms does was an addition made to the constution during a period of war with the British Empire.  The British felt that anyone who wanted sovereinty was commiting treason and was therefore labeled a terrorist.  The right to bear arms was an attempt to nullify the British's authority in the American colonies.  This enviornment no longer exists, and the second ammendment is now stretched beyond comprehension to justify a major problem.  Yes, a major problem.



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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York

"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]

[Yeager]

The Second Amendment to the Constitution of these United States is, with the entire bill of rights, unique in the history of human endeavors.  

"A well regulated militia, being neccessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is twofold: To gaurantee a well regulated militia to maintain a free state and to protect the peoples right to keep and bear arms without infringment.

The founders determined that a populace with the capacity to arm itself was vital enough to be protected in the bill of rights.

Do not try to convince me that the amendment is only for the state and not the people.  Do not try to convinve me that the amendment is outdated and no longer of use.  Your position only serves to re-enforce my belief that I, as a citizen of Washington State and of these United States under the Federal Constitution, am gauranteed the right to keep and bear arms.

With regards to the numbers of deaths by fellow Americans due to accident or misuse: It is a matter that must be faced independant
of the right to keep and bear arms.  the  Constitution requires that it be done this way yet so many seem willing and ready to remove the 2nd amendment and barring that, ignore it.  This will be a tragedy for all in ways most seem unable or unwilling to comprehend.

All other debate aside, let me warn all who wish to deny me a right which is gauranteed in the Constitution of the United States of America: if we (America) succeed in becoming nothing more than another asian, african or european socialist commonwealth, then the experiment beginning with "We the People" will be deemed a total abject failure by myself and all free men and I will take up arms, with tens of thousands of other free men, and restore the republic or die trying.  

Trust me, this is the course we are on and it is leading us all to a terrible reckoning.

DO NOT ignore what I say.  Find ways to improve the justice system so that we are protected from terrible, violent people, find lawful ways to reverse the wicked moral decline in our nation, find lawful ways to protect liberty and justice for all. Everyone knows the justice system is broken, that our nation is in abject moral decline, hell its in total reverse.  Yet you want me, a lawful man, to destroy my guns?  turn them over to *the police*?

Yeah right.

Yeager

[Toad]

Igloo,

Your post(s) simply suggest to me that you haven't done much research on the Constitution itself, the 2nd Amendment in particular and definitely not the men who wrote it.

Their opinions on being armed are available to study and the reasoning they used is as valid now as it was then.

I'm glad you love living in Canada.

 

Oh, and BTW, the Constitution was submitted for Ratification in 1787 and Ratification was completed on June 21, 1788. The Bill Of Rights, the Constitution's first ten amendments, became the law of the land upon ratification in 1791 .

Cornwallis surrendered at Yorktown in the Fall of 1781 is generally thought to be the end of the Revolutionary War In reality, minor battles between the British and the colonists continued for another two years. In February of 1783 George III issued his Proclamation of Cessation of Hostilities, culminating in the Peace Treaty of 1783.

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-01-2000).]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Yeager:
The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is twofold: To gaurantee a well regulated militia to maintain a free state and to protect the peoples right to keep and bear arms without infringment. yeager

Actually, Yeager, I think it's ONEFOLD.  

The first phrase really doesn't figure into it that much.

From:

 http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/vanalful.html


"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.[2](p.1237)"

The postulation of a "right of the people to keep and bear Arms" would make sense standing alone, however, even if it necessarily left some questions still to be settled.[3] It would make sense in just the same unforced way we understand even upon a first reading of the neighboring clause in the Bill of Rights, which uses the exact same phrase in describing something as "the right of the people" that "shall not be violated" (or "infringed"). Just as the Second Amendment declares that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms[] shall not be infringed," so, too, the fourth Amendment declares:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated ....[4]"

[Rocket]

"They can take my gun when they pry it from my cold, dead fingers"

  It makes me sick when I see someone misusing a perfectly good gun to kill with no meaning.  Fix the problem of society not take away my guns tho.  They will find they will have a really tough time getting mine if they ever decided I shouldn't own a gun anymore.  

  Ya know this great country was founded by a buncha twisted miltia members that were fed up with the way things were going.  They appealed to the controlling government to fix things.  They felt things weren't fixed so they got together with thier guns and took the country over.  Were all the citizens of the same feeling? Nope, many of them supported England the whole way.  What scares the government more than murders is the fact that this can be repeated and they don't like that idea.
  I think we have it pretty good right now and think most of the miltias in the country are a bit off in the head but that is what started the revolutionary war anyway eh?

  Should it be tougher to get a gun? I don't know.. the ones that use the guns to kill with are the punk gangers in the inner cities and they will get them regardless.  I think that for general gun owners maybe classes on how to handle a gun, store a gun, shoot a gun before they can buy the gun would be a good thing.  Taking away the gun won't cure the problem but working at it from the owners side can help the problem.

S!

Rocket

[Igloo]

Although the revolutionary war ended in the late 18th century, it is obvious that hostile feelings between America and the British were still present.  It was only a few decades after the revolutionary war that America and Britian went to war again in 1812.  Loyalists were still around during this time and although the offical war was over, it was anything but peaceful.

If you fail to realise that guns in your society is a major problem, you're living in a bubble.  

Canada and most western European countries have serious gun restrictions.  Do you see them running around in a crime ridden society? No, you do not.  Isn't funny how those countries with gun restrictions have some of the lowest crime rates in the world?  Again, that must just be a coincidence, eh?

Let ask you this.   Why do you need guns and the right to bear arms in this modern, somewhat civilized society?  Other countries do not, why do you?

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Squadron Leader, Igloo.
C/O RCAF 411 Squadron - County of York

"Problems cannot be solved with the same awareness that created them" - Albert Einstein[/i]

[Yeager]

I dont want to live anywhere near Europe Igloo and from what I can tell talking and working with fleeing Canadians I dont want any part of that leftist socialist regime either.  Nice folks Canadians, thats for sure....

Anyway, this thread is taking too long to load and Ive said all I care to.

Yeager

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Igloo:
If you fail to realise that guns in your society is a major problem, you're living in a bubble.

It's always those EVIL, INANIMATE objects, isn't it?  


Two words:

Responsibility.  Accountability.

Until US society understands those words and decides to apply them to PEOPLE instead of trying to blame inanimate objects, there will always be problems.