Author Topic: Guns, the other side  (Read 3771 times)

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2000, 11:42:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
The real difference between a swimming pool and a gun is that a swimming pool is volentary. If your neighbor buy's a pool he can't make you swim in it. If your neighbor buy's a car he can't make you drive in it. If your neighbor buy's a roast beef he can't make you eat it(In response to the vegitarian question previously stated).
But if your neighbor buy's a gun you and your family are F*@#!! as soon as he/she gets drunk and decides to use it.

BTW, Charton Heston recently admitted to having an alcohol problem. Don't you feel safer now? I feel safe.

Later
F4UDOA


F4u,

I have several guns, funny my neighbors are very safe. I also feel confident that several of them have guns too. Funny, I know that they have been drunk but I wasn't F^$*'d up by them either. Your logic doesn't wash. Over 40,000 people in the US are killed annually by drunk drivers. Are you going to turn in your vehicle? I don't feel safe as you could get drunk and then I'm totally F$^(ed. As a matter of fact I think it should be MANDATORY you turn in your vehicle, and before someone gets hurt.


Miko2d,

You are welcome to your opinion. The ability to broadcast it is your right under the constitution. Your comments are protected by that right. The name calling is another issue. I really don't give a rodents backside what you think. My actual experiance in Law Enforcement gives me a much different perspective than your nonparticipatory position could give you. I do think you need to seriously revise your usage of labels. I quite frankly seriously object to the terms you used as a personal attack on me. I would have sent you an e-mail to tell you directly but you don't seem to have posted one on the BBS. Very convenient. It says something about you that you aren't willing to be contacted even indirectly. I could say more about it including referring to you by sonme choice words but I won't stoop the your level.

Mav


[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-19-2000).]
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Offline leonid

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« Reply #46 on: September 19, 2000, 03:24:00 AM »
Toad,
I'm not asking that firearms be banned from private ownership.  That would be almost insane to expect America to accept such a sweeping change.  Besides, firearms have been an integral part of our culture, for better or worse, and I think it would be wrong to suddenly just stop it.

However, there has to be some way of controlling them.  How, I don't know.  Maybe we could get some ideas from other countries.  The problem is, are American firearm owners willing to make a compromise?  I don't think that any American expects to see firearms banned, merely restricted or controlled.  These are very big questions, but people from both ends need to be willing to talk first, and that may still be a way off.
ingame: Raz

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #47 on: September 19, 2000, 08:07:00 AM »
Toad - my point was that to compare a swimming pool to a gun is senseless. That's all. How many swimming pools are used to murder people? I made no statement as to the banning of guns wholesale. I just think that responisble owners might not mind using a registered gun club. Is that such a bad idea?
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #48 on: September 19, 2000, 08:35:00 AM »
Dowding, my senseless point about swimming pools was to compare how senseless your arguements of removing our 2nd amendment is...where does it stop?  You must ALWAYS be careful what you ask for.  

Offline Udie

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« Reply #49 on: September 19, 2000, 09:21:00 AM »
 Ok,  I work my arse off 12+ hrs a day for a week or 2 and make a few thousand dollars.  I take my few thousand dollars to deposit it in the bank.  Now this is all the money I have, it's my life savings.  I'm sorry, if you ask me it is my right to carry a freakin 357 magnum holstered on my side to protect myself and my property.  

 My house is probobly the last place I will ever have to defend myself,  all the whacko's are out in the public.  I should need no permit to protect myself, yet I do   If I take a gun with me to the bank while I'm making a deposit, I don't want to bring it in the bank so I put it in the glove box.  Well I leave the bank and go home, otw home I get pulled over and the cop finds the gun.  I have no permit so I am now subject to felony procecution, which could lead to me being put in prison with the very type of people I was protecting myself from. Not to mention if convicted of a felony I lose my right to vote.  Is that liberty?

 The government can take my life and allows the taking of unborn life daily, if I PERSUE what makes ME happy (and harms nobody) I get thrown in jail (if i get caught).  Man those 2 are the heart of our constitution not even amendments and they are violated everyday.   If we lose the 2nd amendment we're collectively fluffied, there will be nothing to stop them from doing what ever they want.

 If you ask me our government needs to be reset!  Ctl-alt-del  Ctl-alt-del!  

Udie
 
 

figaro

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« Reply #50 on: September 19, 2000, 10:04:00 AM »
Very interesting topic and arguments, gentlemen...

I frankly dont know where to stand.  I love and use guns, but cant help being impressed by the daily carnage in the admirable USA.

Strong and respectable arguments are made on both sides...

BUT:

Lets get some facts straight, especially if itīs easy to do so.

The second amendment:  Would anybody care to write down its exact wording???

You see, I know that when MIETLA says :

"The Second Amendment has nothing to do with sports or hunting. It affirms an absolute and unconditional right to own and bear arms."

He is being either ignorant, misleading, or provocative.

There are many good reasons to allow firearm ownership, and most of them have been exposed here.  The second amendment is NOT one of them.  READ IT! (And I mean more then the first half of a sentence, subordinate clauses are there for a reason.)

Again, not taking sides here, just please stop misrepresenting and using the constitutional argument.

THE SECOND AMENDMENT DOES NOT ALLOW UNCONDITIONAL GUN OWNERSHIP, UNLESS YOU ARE PART OF A WELL REGULATED MILITIA.

Thats all I am saying here.  And its a fact.

Cheers


figaro  

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #51 on: September 19, 2000, 10:21:00 AM »
Figaro...Senator Larry Craig's speech on the senate floor regarding our rights:

Mr. President, I appear on the floor to speak about a provision of the Constitution of our
 country that has been under nearly constant attack for 8 years. In fact, we heard on the floor this morning two Senators speak about provisions in law that would alter a constitutional right.

 The provision I am talking about is part of our Bill of Rights--the first 10 amendments to our Constitution--which protect our most basic rights from being stripped away by an overly zealous government, including rights that all Americans hold dear:

 The freedom to worship according to one's conscience;

 The freedom to speak or to write whatever we might think;

 The freedom to criticize our Government;

 And, the freedom to assemble peacefully.

 Among the safeguards of these fundamental rights, we find the Second Amendment. Let me read it clearly:

 A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

 I want to repeat that.

 The second amendment of our Constitution says very clearly that `A well regulated Militia' is `necessary' for the `security of a free State,' and that `the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

 What we heard this morning was an effort to infringe upon that right.

 Some--even of my colleagues--will read what I have just quoted from our Constitution quite differently. They might read `A well regulated Militia,' and stop there and declare that `the right of the people to keep and bear Arms' actually means that it is a right of our Government to keep and bear arms because they associate the militia with the government. Yet, under this standard, the Bill of Rights would protect only the right of a government to speak, or the right of a government to criticize itself, if you were taking that same argument and transposing it
 over the first amendment. In fact, the Bill of Rights protects the rights of people from being infringed upon by Government- not the other way around.

 Of course, we know that our Founding Fathers in their effort to ratify the Constitution could not convince the citizens to accept it until the Bill of Rights was established to assure the citizenry that we were protecting the citizens from Government instead of government from the citizens.

 Others say that the Second Amendment merely protects hunting and sport shooting. They see
 shooting competitions and hunting for food as the only legitimate uses of guns, and, therefore, conclude that the Second Amendment is no impediment to restricting gun use to those purposes.

 You can hear it in the way President Clinton assures hunters that his gun controlproposals that will not trample on recreation--though his proposals certainly walk all over their rights.

 In fact, the Second Amendment does not merely protect sport shooting and hunting, though it certainly does that.

 Nor does the second amendment exist to protect the government's right to bear arms.

 The framers of our Constitution wrote the Second Amendment with a greater purpose.

 They made the Second Amendment the law of the land because it has something very particular to say about the rights of every man and every woman, and about the relationship of every man and every woman to his or her Government.

 That is: The first right of every human being, the right of self-defense.

 Let me repeat that: The first right of every human being is the right of self-defense. Without that right, all other rights are meaningless. The right of self-defense is not something the government bestows upon its citizens. It is an inalienable right, older than the Constitution itself. It existed prior to government and prior to the social contract of our Constitution. It is the
 right that government did not create and therefore it is a right that under our Constitution the government simply cannot take away. The framers of our Constitution understood this clearly. Therefore, they did not merely acknowledge that the right exists. They denied Congress the power to infringe upon that right.
[/i]

 Under the social contract that is the Constitution of the United States, the American people have told Congress explicitly that we do not have the authority to abolish the American people's right to defend themselves. Further, the framers said not only does the Congress not have the power to abolish that right, but Congress may not even infringe upon that right. That is what our Constitution says. That is what the Second Amendment clearly lays out. Our Founding
 Fathers wrote the Second Amendment to tell us that a free state cannot exist if the people are denied the right or the means to defend themselves.

 Let me repeat that because it is so fundamental to our freedom. A free state cannot exist, our free state of the United States collectively, cannot exist without the right of the people to defend themselves. This is the meaning of the Second Amendment. Over the years a lot of our citizens and many politicians have tried to nudge that definition around. But contrary to what
 the media and the President say, the right to keep and bear arms is as important today as it was 200 years ago.

 Every day in this country thousands of peaceful, law-abiding Americans use guns to defend themselves, their families, and their property. Oftentimes, complete strangers are protected by that citizen who steps up and stops the thief or the stalker or the rapist or the murderer from going at that citizen.

 According to the FBI, criminals used guns in 1998 380,000 times across America. Yet research indicates that peaceful, law-abiding Americans, using their constitutional right, used a gun to prevent 2.5 million crimes in America that year and nearly every year. In fact, I believe the benefits of protecting the people's right to keep and bear arms far outweighs the destruction wrought by criminals and firearms accidents. The Centers for Disease Control report 32,000 Americans died from firearm injuries in 1997; under any estimate, that is a tragedy.
 Unfortunately, the Centers for Disease Control do not keep data on the number of lives that were saved when guns were used in a defensive manner.


 Yet if we were to survey the public every year, we would find 400,000 Americans report they used a gun in a way that almost certainly saved either their life or someone else's. Is that estimate too high? Perhaps. I hope it is, because every time a life is saved from violence, that means that someone was threatening a life with violence. But that number would have to be over 13 times too high for our opponents to be correct when they say that guns are used to kill more often than they are used to protect. What they have been saying here and across America
 simply isn't true and the facts bear that out.

 We are not debating the tragedy. We are debating facts at this moment. They cannot come up with 2.5 million gun crimes. But clearly, through surveys, we can come up with 2.5 million crimes thwarted every year when someone used a gun in defense of themselves or their property. In many cases, armed citizens not only thwarted crime, but they held the suspect until the authorities arrived and placed that person in custody.

 Stories of people defending themselves with guns do not make the nightly news. It just simply isn't news in America. It isn't hot. It isn't exciting. It is American. Sometimes when people act in an American way, it simply isn't reportable in our country anymore. So the national news media doesn't follow it.

 Yet two of the school shootings that have brought gun issues to the forefront in the last year, in Pearl, MS, and Edinboro, PA, were stopped by peaceful gun owners using their weapons to subdue the killer until the police arrived. How did that get missed in the story? It was mentioned once, in passing, and then ignored as people ran to the floor of the Senate to talk about the tragedy of the killing. Of course the killing was a tragedy, but it was also heroic that
 someone used their constitutional right to save lives in the process.

 A third school shooting in Springfield, OR, was stopped because some parents took time to
 teach their child the wise use of guns. So when that young man heard a particular sound coming
 from the gun, he was able to rush the shooter, because he knew that gun had run out of
 ammunition. He was used to guns. He was around them. He subdued the shooter and saved
 potentially many other lives. We have recognized him nationally for that heroic act, that young
 high school student of Springfield, OR.

 For some reason, my colleagues on the other side of the aisle never want to tell these stories.
 They only want to say, after a crisis such as this, `Pass a new gun control law and call 9-1-1.'
 Yet these stories are essential to our understanding of the right of people to keep and bear arms.

 I will share a few of these stories right now. Shawnra Pence, a 29-year-old mother from
 Sequim, WA, home alone with one of her children, heard an intruder break into the house. She took her .9 mm, took her child to the bedroom, and when the 18-year-old criminal broke into the bedroom, she said, `Get out of my house, I have a gun, get out now.' He left and the police caught him. She saved her life and her child's life. It made one brief story in the Peninsula Daily news in Sequim, WA.

 We have to talk about these stories because it is time America heard the other side of this debate. There are 2.5 million Americans out there defending themselves and their property by the use of their constitutional right.

 In Cumberland, TN, a 28-year-old Jason McCulley broke into the home of Stanley Horn and his wife, tied up the couple at knife-point, and demanded to know where the couple kept some cash. While Mrs. Horn was directing the robber, Mr. Horn wriggled free from his restraints, retrieved his handgun, shot the intruder, and then called the police. The intruder, Jason McCulley, subsequently died. If some Senators on the other side of the aisle had their way,
 perhaps the Horns would have been killed and Jason McCulley would have walked away.

 Earlier today, we heard the Senator from Illinois and the Senator from California read the names people killed by guns in America. Some day they may read the name Jason McCulley. I doubt they will tell you how he died, however, because it doesn't advance their goal of destroying the Second Amendment. But As Paul Harvey might say: Now you know the rest of the story.

 Every 13 seconds this story is repeated across America. Every 13 seconds in America
 someone uses a gun to stop a crime. Why do our opponents never tell these stories? Why do the enemies of the right to keep and bear arms ignore this reality that is relived by 2.5 million Americans every year? Why is it that all we hear from them is, `Pass a new gun control law, and, by the way, call 9 1-1.'


 I encourage all listening today, if you have heard of someone using their Second Amendment
 rights to prevent a crime, to save a life, to protect another life, then send us your story. There are people here who desperately need to hear this in Washington, right here on Capitol Hill. This is a story that should be played out every day in the press but isn't.

 So let's play it out, right here on the floor of the Senate. Send me those stories from your local newspapers about that law-abiding citizen who used his constitutional right of self-defense.
 Send that story to me, Senator Larry Craig, Washington, DC, 20510, or send it to your own
 Senator. Let him or her know the rest of the story of America's constitutional rights.

 Having said all of this, let there be no mistake. Guns are not for everyone. We restrict children's access to guns and we restrict criminals' access to guns, but we must not tolerate politicians who tell us that the Second Amendment only protects the right to hunt. We must not tolerate politicians who infringe upon our right to defend ourselves from thieves and stalkers
 and rapists and murderers. And we must not tolerate the politician who simply says: `Pass another gun control law and call 9-1-1.'


[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 09-19-2000).]

Offline Apache

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« Reply #52 on: September 19, 2000, 10:22:00 AM »
Figaro. I suggest you research what the Framers of The Constitution meant when they penned The Bill of Rights. I will give you some help. George Mason, regarded as the father of The Bill of Rights, defined militia as follows: "They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers."
It is not The National Guard as some would believe.
George Washington stated that the 2nd Amendment was "next in importance to the Constitution itself as the 'American people's liberty teeth.'"

If you want more, I will be more than happy to assist ya. <S>

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #53 on: September 19, 2000, 10:45:00 AM »
 To Maverick,
 I reread my post and I regret using the words I did. I appologise for that. I will make en edit to the same post with an appology.
 I did not make my e-mail public because I prefer not to receive unsolicited e-mail. You may still draw any conclusions you want from that fact, but you do not have any basis for any opinion on how participatory my position is.


 I also want to add that I have highest regard for law enforcement officers, serving or retired.

 In view of all that I want to point out that  while I have no problem with your opinions on the issue, your statements about leonid's post are completely untrue.
 Leonid does not "force" his opinion on anyone. Your post is one of the most forcefull posts I saw on this topic. While I had a few disagreements with leonid on this board, I was always impressed by his objectivity and deep knowlege of the subject discussed.

 You mock his attempt to post his views ("Yet you feel the "right" ti tell others how to live their lives. Excuse me, but who died and made YOU God?") and urge him to him not to make his views public ("I have a suggestion for you. Why don't you decide to live YOUR life the way YOU want and leave others ... to  live the way THEY want.") while you do exactly that and refer to the first amendment. That is kind of hipoctitical on your part.
 While you do not use foul language in your post, your creative use of English language and very personal attack on the poster rather then his/her views make your posts more provocative. Also, using caps in a post means shouting. Seing that was some reasons, though no excuse, that I used the words I did.
 Again, I appologise.

 I hope now that now that I expressed myself civilly, you will consider my opinion.

Regards,
miko

[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 09-19-2000).]

Offline mietla

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« Reply #54 on: September 19, 2000, 12:35:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by figaro:
You see, I know that when MIETLA says :

"The Second Amendment has nothing to do with sports or hunting. It affirms an absolute and unconditional right to own and bear arms."

He is being either ignorant, misleading, or provocative.

In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

"...But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

Thomas Jefferson.



figaro

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« Reply #55 on: September 19, 2000, 12:46:00 PM »
Ripsnort, Apache,

Thank you for the added perspective.

You get into the meaning of the words, I was just being literal.

Literaly (word for word), the right to hold guns is not absolute.  I stand by my original statement.

As to the meaning, well I dont know...

I would like to know why the founders felt they had to add mention of a militia (you partially answered that), or why they had to get into the "well-regulated" business (you didnt answer that at all).

Believe me guys, I am not trying to provoke.  I have guns at home myself (not handguns), I am just interested in the constitutional interpretation.

Mietla: sorry, I dont see the point of this admirable quote.  I thought we (and you) were talking strictly about the wording and meaning of the second amendment.  Thats all I am talking about.

Cheers


figaro

Offline Apache

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« Reply #56 on: September 19, 2000, 01:05:00 PM »
Figaro,
If it appears that I am being antagonistic, I am not. I read your post and simply wanted to point out what I considered to be a misunderstanding of the 2nd amendment on your part.

In your post you state that the 2nd Amendment does not allow unconditional gun ownership unless you are part of a well regulated militia. Thats the whole point of the 2nd Amendment. We are the well regulated militia, the people, to protect ourselves from a possible runaway federal government.

BTW, "well regulated": At the time of the framing of the Constitution, and in this context, that phrase would have meant "trained in military discipline and use of arms." The vision of the Framers was that the members of the militia (the armed populace) would be organized in small military units for the purpose of training, and occasionally for actual military use. Each member would be expected to supply his own arms, which would be made possible by the recognition of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms."

<S>
Apache

Offline mietla

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« Reply #57 on: September 19, 2000, 01:22:00 PM »
Founding Fathers were very much afraid that the government they just created will (with time) become oppresive and tyrannical (boy, were they right). They gave us the Second Ammendment as to tool to overthrow such corrupt government.

I don't recall an exact quote, but I believe that Jefferson also said:

"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that we won't need it until the government will try to take it away."

Unfortunately, the libs were successful in redirecting the Second Amendment debate to hunting/target practice direction.

Bill of Right does not grant us any rights. It only asserts them as fundamental and unalienable, and forbids the government to abridge them.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #58 on: September 19, 2000, 02:14:00 PM »
Miko2d,

First, apology accepted for the terms used.

I use caps as I do not know how to use the bold feature that is obviously in here somewhere. Others use it so it must be available. I have no other way to convey emphasis without the usage of caps. I am a computer dweeb.

I still stand by my position as to Leonid's intent in his post. His usage of this forum to espouse his opinions is obviously permitted. It is the "O'Club" for off AH topics. I was reacting to his posts conclusion that guns are the problem and the solution is that guns must be controlled, ie banned / restricted.

In my opinion, it is not the presence of guns that is the big change over the last 200+ years that have become a problem. It is the lack of personal responsibility of our citizens. This ranges from inattention to parenting to unwillingness to control oneself. The lack of "proper" behaviour on the part of a minority (in this country) is being used as a reason to impose a restriction on those who behave in a responsible manner. The gun "control" advocates like to use very emotionaly charged words and phrases to "prove" their side of the argument. What it all comes down to is punishing the majority for the misdeeds of the few. In this Country it is a basic tenet that the accused is presumed innocent until proven guilty. In the case of "gun control" the accused are all gun owners who have been "convicted" of no improper acts involving firearms based on the acts of an admittedly small minority of societal predators. Now I ask you. Is it proper to punish the majority for the acts of the few? Is it proper to force restrictions and prohibitions on the innocent to include confiscation and legal criminal sanctions on those who have never committed an act against others in the population? Is it proper to create a new class of criminal soley by passage of a possession law absent any overt criminal act on the part of the newly created offender? I refer you to the social experiment of prohibition. A minority was able to pass legislation prohibiting the possession of and consumption of spirits. This was touted as a boon to remove the ills of society. The enforced sobriety would remove the reason most criminal acts were commited, namely the deinhibiting feature of drink. The result was the instant creation of a massive number of federal law violators. Anyone who had a drink was in violation of the new federal law. This was in fact a majority of the population. It also made it possible for organized crime to flourish and grow to a multi million dollar entity (not to mention the fortunes of several politicians ie. Joe Kennedy).

The social experiment was a wonder of legislating morality and a wonder of creation of imorality by virtue of those who ignored the law.

The forcing of the opinion that the average person could not be trusted to have alcohol created a much worse situation. The many were punished for the actions of the few.

I see this same situation coming up in several areas.

The media or "public interest groups" pandered to by the media like to vilify multiple activities. Examples:

PETA- "eating meat is murder"
drinking milk is subjugating cattle to abuse by mankind, and prostate cancer is caused by milk.
Hunting is bad. Fishing is bad as it causes pain to te fish when it bites the hook. (Don't laugh, an anti fishing innitiaive was started in AZ using this as justification)

Sierra Club- all off road vehicles are causing irreversable damage to the environment and SUV's should be banned. Population centers are bad as they impact riparian areas and cause extinction.

Humane Society- Hunting is bad and animals should be allowed to flourish in the wild on their own. Mankind is incapable of managing wildlife. (This totally ignores that mankind is a part of nature.)

Green Peace- fishing in the oceans with a net is bad. nuclear weapons are bad. oil is bad.

And so on. Now don't get me wrong. I do not think that these organizations are "bad". They do have some real and valid points. I think they carry them to an extreme. I believe these organizations have a purpose and can do good things as long as they do not take it too far.

I believe that coercing a population to conform to a new behaviour based soley on the opinion of a segment being "offended" is not proper. In a free society oposing views must be allowed. If they are not then there is no freedom of thought or belief.

I see that I have rambled on quite a bit. I am sorry for that.  

Does this help clarify where I am coming from Miko2d?

Mav

[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 09-19-2000).]
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Offline Jigster

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« Reply #59 on: September 19, 2000, 02:40:00 PM »
The United States was formed a little over 200 years ago. It has sustained itself on a document about 200 years old. It has had some freedoms added over the years to change with the times.

But...the US is a relatively young country. Very young compaired to Europe. Yet, we have the oldest standing government in the world. I think that says something for the constitution. And that the framers knew exactly what they were doing after the Articles of Confederation failed.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. We have stablity because of longevity. Special intrest groups managed to do it once and ended up with 13 years of pure hell. I would like to avoid something like that myself.

Bring on the rock salt!

- Jig