Author Topic: this is going to get some play....  (Read 2480 times)

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2006, 09:50:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
I don't think it's Cheney's fault at all...
what was he suppose to do, take roll before he took his shot?

the lawyer knows he was in the wrong. I am sure he will not make the same mistake twice.


Did you type this???

I thought I went easy on yah.
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Offline Stringer

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« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2006, 09:55:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
thanks hang
appreciate the name calling ya hippie

I guess some of you think if you get hit by a car while jay walking, it is the drivers fault too?

It ain't like they were deer hunting where the target is stationary...


No, some of us know that the guy pulling the trigger is responsible period.  Especially in a bird hunt.  There is no excuse and no bird is ever worth hitting another hunter, period.  Even if accidently.

If Cheney and company aren't good enough to figure that out, then they shouldn't hunt or only hunt alone.

If you're not up to quail hunting, then don't go with other people.  Simple.

Last year, I took my 11 year old son pheasant hunting for the first time.  Towards the end of the field, as we were closing on the blockers and each other (the field ended in a sort of semi-circle by a creek bottom) a covy of quail got up.

Now, we're there for pheasant which usually jump mostly straight up and get up in the air some whereas quail get up only as high as they need to, and start scootin'.

I told my son to take a knee, as did I, and I didn't pull on a single quail.  There was no good field of fire and a quail isn't worth the risk.

If that bird flew around and behind Cheney, then he needs to make sure of his field of fire, period end of story, before pulling the trigger.  I don't care if Helen Keller was out there with him...it's the hunter who is pulling the trigger responisiblity.  

I think if Cheney had carnal knowledge of a sheep some of you would say it's OK, because the sheep never said "no".  

The only question I have is if that was a guided hunt, where the hell were the guides to keep the hunt safe and organized?

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2006, 10:03:41 PM »
I don't think that most of us here are trying to say that Cheney did nothing wrong.


I think we are trying to prevent a kneejerk reaction to the thought that cheney is evil.
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Offline Stringer

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« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2006, 10:15:57 PM »
It's usually best, if you don't want to look kneejerkish yourself, to let that reaction happen first, especially since not one evil reference has been made...until your post :)

Are the Cheney supporters that insecure?

Plus what's so bad about that.  He might very well be evil, but he's our evil guy :t

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2006, 11:07:56 PM »
No stringer you are trying to beat up on the guy.  You say
 
"If Cheney and company aren't good enough to figure that out, then they shouldn't hunt or only hunt alone.  If you're not up to quail hunting, then don't go with other people."

Yet the guy has been an avid hunter for many decades, and by accounts of at least one senator hunting buddy is a crack shot, and usually the most sucessful hunter in a party.  Id venture to guess he would have more experience as a hunter than 99% of anyone who would frequent this board.  Which I thought Id mention since incompentance and blame seems to be the direction of the thread.

The situation as I understand it leads me to agree with ghost that anyone could have made the mistake in that circumstance.  

Simplely playing the legal blame game loses all perspective.  I juxtapose that situation with a friend of mine who was shot in the back of the head while calling turkey by some idiot on the move who doesnt know the difference between a hen call and a gobbler, and just shot at the call.  And I see a very large difference between the two.

Offline Stringer

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« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2006, 12:03:25 AM »
You're right.  I am beating up on him.  I know it's an accident...it's not like Cheney went out there to shoot the guy.  I bet Cheney feels horrible about it, plus more than just a little embarrassed.

There's been more times than I can remember when I didn't take the shot because I'm not exactly sure where the blockers were, when, as we get closer, I see I would have had a clear shot.  But at the time, I wasn't sure.

To me, it isn't about some legal blame game.  I don't care about that crap at all.  

The direction of the thread started out as it was the guy that got shot fault, and that is BS.  

Anyone could have made that mistake, I guess.  I know we've uninvited hunters for less than that.  I haven't hunted with anyone that's put someone else in the hospital, have you?  And if so, do you still?

That is an idiotic move with the Turkey deal.   In each case though, the shooter did not clear his field of fire.  The turkey is worse only because that idiot didn't even bother to visually identify what he was shooting at.

It seems this group, whether individually good hunters or not, just didn't work well together on that day.  

And I'd probably have less of an intense reaction (my thoughts would be the same) if some of the early spin, didn't come out to say the shootee didn't follow protocal, etc.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2006, 12:08:36 AM by Stringer »

Offline Nash

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« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2006, 12:56:55 AM »
Just outta curiousity....

How do real-life actual hunters here feel about Cheney's hunting sojourns?

I've never hunted, but would if the opportunity presented itself (as long as it ain't gofers - that just struck me as too goofy). I'm an avid angler, and it's through my involvement in that leads me to ponder something about this quail shoot.

Short background: I'm a fly fisherman. It's different than dropping an army of down riggers and dragging them along with a boat. It's different than spin casting some fancy new spoon. We hunt fish. We turn over rocks to look for what the fish might be eating. We spend large amounts of time on the banks just watching the water, watching the movement of the fish. We look at the bug hatches for clues as to what the fish might be feeding on. We have fly-tying vices, hackle, thread, and hooks to be able to sit down and actually create the things that the fish are eating. When we throw our line into the water, we do it in ways that mimic the behavior of whatever it is we have tied to the line.

To me? That's hunting.

And when we do it? There are ethical guidelines that serious fishers know. Like code. We scoff at spin casters. We're disgusted by those fishers that bang any dang fish they catch over the head with a club. We're embarrassed by the guys who hang  fish on a scale causing them even more trauma; harming the viability and productivity of our rivers. Guys that don't clamp down their barbs are idiots. Etc.

Now, I'm not really sure what's involved in hunting with guns, but I'm pretty dang sure the same kind of things go into it. Like knowing how to track. Knowing where to look. Knowing how your prey behaves. And on and on (...about things and terminology I have no clue of. :) )

But I'm curious.

For all you seasoned hunters, how does it strike you that the hunts that Cheney goes on amount to nothing more than birds raised in captivity on private land, are under nets, and when he shows up they release them and BOOM! He kills, like 70 of them? A couple years ago his group killed something like 470 birds in one of these "hunting" trips.

This last trip was the same thing. Birds raised in boxes, released when the so-called hunters show up.

Like I said, I don't know much about hunting.... but this strikes me more like shooting than hunting.

How do actual hunters feel about this practice?

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2006, 01:43:06 AM »
Just because the lands are private, does not mean the birds are raised that way.  Quayle hunting and Pheasent hunting are still some of the most respectable types of hunting in this world.

I have no respect for the dude who bags a deer from 400 yards with a high power rifle.  Nor any respect for the guy who sits in a tree stand 10 yards higher then a deer would ever think to look.

However, pheasent or quale hunting is very difficult and involves much effort to actually go out and get the bird.  You could have a 3,000 dollar shotgun, but if you are not half decent you will still miss.  I believe the same is not true for deer hunting.
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2006, 01:50:43 AM »
I appreciate that laser, but this wasn't like some wild quale hunt.

Fact is, they grew the birds in boxes, and then let 'em go to shoot 'em.

I had never heard of that until this.

So I'm wondering how actual hunters feel about this kinda thing.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2006, 01:56:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
Just outta curiousity....

How do real-life actual hunters here feel about Chaney's hunting sojourns?



it's been a few years since I've had the time/opportunity to go hunting.  but when I was hunting regularly it was considered 'bad form' to shoot your hunting companions.

that aside.  just because he's hunting on private land doesn't mean it's a 'canned hunt'.  

there are many private hunting ranches where they cultivate and maintain habitat for game and support it by charging people to hunt.  a very good option for people who don't own their own hunting land or have a lot of time to spend getting to know a particular area.  I got the impression that this is the type of hunt Cheney did.

canned hunts on the other hand suck.  little difference from paying a farmer to go 'hunt' one of his cows.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2006, 01:57:37 AM »
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing this information anywhere.  


Most private lands do nothing of the sort.  I believe he was hunting on a friend's ranch, not a specified game land.

Some (key word) game lands do box breed birds, but most of the behavior of the birds is instinctual and is made sure to not be bred out.  I.E. Comparing wild turkeys to Thanksgiving Turkeys.

Though I have heard that as Pheasants grow older, they actually become smarter.  So wild pheasants are a bunch more difficult to hunt then any young pheasant would be.


Lastly, what the hell are we doing up so late?
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Offline Nash

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« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2006, 02:05:08 AM »
Search google for "cheney canned hunt" (thanks capt. apathy for the terminology). I just looked it up and, well... there it is.

I'm pretty sure that this "peppered" guy's farm was the same thing. It's what made me ask the question in the first place.

So.... is Cheney a hunter or a shooter?

Offline Roscoroo

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« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2006, 02:11:34 AM »
So what season is it really ???

Could it be
Roscoroo ,
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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2006, 02:24:40 AM »
I did some construction work at a pheasentry several years ago.  They werent raised in boxes.  Mabey you read they were raised in pens which could also be misleading if you dont envision a pen as a small building with a wire and netting yard 2 or 3 times the size of the building.

Many private clubs stock their land going into hunting season.  I dont know an exact timeline for it, but stocked pheasents do revert to wild behavior.  I know this because I used to hunt farms adjacent to hunting clubs because that was a good place to kick up pheasents :)

Yea, Cheney has went to a private club here in PA a couple times and killed alot of birds that were just released that morning.  I cant see that being all that fun or sporting, but I guess if you have the money to pay someone to guarantee you will find and kill something, what do I care?

There are varying degrees though.  There is stocking to make sure there are 'wild' game to hunt, and then there's dumping a bunch of confused animals out in the field for the days customers.

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2006, 02:41:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
I have no respect for the dude who bags a deer from 400 yards with a high power rifle.
What about a deer at a dead sprint from 100 yards from a freestanding position with open sights?  Or taking 1/2 hour or more to quietly move 100 feet to top a ridge line to get a line of sight on deer that may, or may not be on the other side :)  I always enjoyed deer much more than small game.