Author Topic: Iraqi Civil war  (Read 2699 times)

Offline Toad

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Iraqi Civil war
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2006, 09:03:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
If that isn't civil war what the heck is it?


Probably the "Birth of a Nation". Like other births, you don't really know how it's going to turn out for about 25 years.

Just think how smart it would be to condemn a kid as a hopeless cause during the "Terrible Twos".

But, admittedly, this Iraq thing just isn't fitting the "30 minute solution, including commercials and news updates" requirements.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Curval

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« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2006, 09:10:43 AM »
How romantic.  What we are witnessing in Iraq is democracy in action...the birth of a new nation?

lol

I suppose the same could have been said in the late 1960s re: Indo-China.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Westy

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« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2006, 09:18:03 AM »
Birth?

What we're witnessesing is a long, drawnout, forced artificial-insemination.   And I think the resultant "baby" is gonna have one hellova grudge for a long, long time.



(Curval I was being sarcastic. And fwiw I don't care how many Iraqis died in 1982, 1992 or more recently)

Offline Curval

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« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2006, 09:26:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
And fwiw I don't care how many Iraqis died in 1982, 1992 or more recently


ooooookay.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Toad

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Iraqi Civil war
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2006, 09:30:31 AM »
What else is it? Yeah, we deposed Saddam.

I'm sure none of you will pretend that he represented "good government" in Iraq? Or will you defend the mass murderer?

Now, in the absence of a dictator, a new government has been formed. Constitutional convention was held, open election was held.

So what is it, since by your observation it is NOT a new nation trying to form itself?

Westy thinks we raped Iraq against its will by deposing Saddam and artificially inseminated "democracy". Well, the nice thing is that it IS their government and it will be what THEY make it, for better or for worse. Westy, I guess you think maybe they'll just crown a new dictator. Could happen.

Curval compares it to VietNam. So, Curval, you think it benefitted VN when the North won?

You know, it's real easy to be the critical sniper from the sidelines.

Yep, we did it.

Now, oh great oracle-observers, what should be done now?

Just sneak out completely tomorrow night?

C'mon. It's easy to be critical. Let's see you be constructive. Display your infallability and tell us all what should be done NOW.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Westy

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« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2006, 09:49:04 AM »
I'll repeat that I could careless about the Iraqi's under Saddan.  Any more than I did for the Chileans under Pinochet or Cambodians under Pol Pot etc.  

 And I'm sorry Toad that you think the 2000 plus Americans and Britons deaths, doing what the Iraqi people should have done themselves, have been worth it.

 You claim to see a democratic Arab nation being born. I don't.  I see another Shah type Iran being created.



"it's real easy to be the critical sniper from the sidelines."

 Of course!  It's as easy as being a pom-pom waiver.



"what should be done now?"

 Well you didn't listen to anyone in 2002-2003 so I doubt you're really interested in hearing anything now.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2006, 10:13:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
And I'm sorry Toad that you think the 2000 plus Americans and Britons deaths, doing what the Iraqi people should have done themselves, have been worth it.
[/b]

Nice shot but a miss. Show me where I said that? Quotes, please.

 

Quote
You claim to see a democratic Arab nation being born. I don't.  I see another Shah type Iran being created.
[/b]

You did read that first bit of mine?

Quote
Toad: Probably the "Birth of a Nation". Like other births, you don't really know how it's going to turn out for about 25 years.


I think it's too early to tell what you are seeing. It could go a lot of ways from here. They may return to dictatorship, it's a possiblity.


Quote
Of course!  It's as easy as being a pom-pom waiver.
[/b]

I'd be interested in what you consider my "pom-pom waving" in this thread. Quote it.


Quote
Well you didn't listen to anyone in 2002-2003 so I doubt you're really interested in hearing anything now.


Oh, I assure you I AM interested in your suggestions. Yeah, I supported the invasion. I think if you search you'll ALSO find that support was contingent on WMD being found. I DID give the Administration the benefit of the doubt for quite a while.

You of course were never fooled and knew the truth for certain all along. Good on ya.

So, given that you've got such a handle on things, how about sharing your version of the best plan starting right now?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2006, 10:20:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
How romantic (snip) ...the birth of a new nation?

lol

I suppose the same could have been said in the late 1960s re: Indo-China.



How is that not exactly what happened in Indo-China?

Offline Westy

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« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2006, 10:50:57 AM »
"Show me where I said that?"

 Quotes?  Sorry, am I supposed to have one?  I'm just applying a little Toadism with my posts. The "if it can be implied then state it as fact until it's refuted" kind of thing.

 Toad I too have been consistent from the beginning.  And since the beginning you've been a pom-pom waiver.  It does seem to bug you though that so many (not just me) have been right about this thing from the start.  

 however I have no suggestions to offer as I certainly have no illusions that you'd try to find value in anything offered.

  You and the team you rooted for went charging ("gung ho!" at that) down the wrong road in spite of all the warnings, objections and advice to do otherwise.   IMO it's well past time for the drivers to relinquish control or wake up and get out of there.   I don't have any faith in the latter given given Cheney, Bush and Rumsfields stance on the matter since 2003.  And it doesn't look like they'll relinquish control any time soon either does it?

 So, as Powell said, ""you break it, you own it."    

 And I'll always be on the ready to say what a fediddleing mess this is and look at  the gullible who supported it.


edited: p.s.  I think the best your team is going to get is an Iran style of "democracy" - after the smoke has cleared.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 11:01:44 AM by Westy »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2006, 11:16:58 AM »
I'll tell you why it doesn't bother me in the least. I don't think your description of my position is accurate. So, it's pretty easy to ignore it as more smoke.

Quote
however I have no suggestions to offer as I certainly have no illusions that you'd try to find value in anything offered.


I'm pretty certain you DON'T have anything constructive to offer by your own admission. I'm not surprised in the least. I would like to read your ideas if you ever come up with any.

Thank cod that you're here to beech about the Administration's ideas, though.

There's no doubt the US "broke" the Saddam dictatorship. I readily admit I supported the invasion on the basis of WMD being found. It wasn't, which is really immaterial now. We did invade, we did remove the dictator, we did engender/support an Iraqi attempt to form a democratic government.

I don't see where we can just "up stakes" and walk away now. I also don't have a "better idea" of what to do now than what the Administration is trying to do.

Apparently, neither do you. But, you do add all the "I told you so" value to the discussion and the "beech, beech, beech.. but I don't have a better idea either" factor as well. Congrats.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 11:19:44 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Westy

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Iraqi Civil war
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2006, 11:38:44 AM »
"you DON'T have anything constructive to offer by your own admission."

 More Toadism.

 I guess I should counter with I don't think your description of my position is in the least bit correct and your retorts could be easily labelled as intentionally inflamatory for the sole purpose of arguing.  



"Thank cod that you're here to beech about the Administration's ideas, though."

 My pleasure.  It's nothing new though. I did it during the hype and spin-up to the invasion and I'll mock and ridicule them for bad judgment now.  After all Bush & Co, Inc. got my disrespect the old fashioned way. "They earned it."

 If it weren't for people like me (the anti pom-pommers) then you'd all still be slapping each other high-fives for the fantastic job not done in Iraq.  

 Word.

Offline Ping

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« Reply #41 on: February 28, 2006, 11:49:56 AM »
Unfortunately you cant turn back time.
Probably the best course would have been to enforce and tighten sanctions causing a change from within.
 We will never know now and from here its a spin of the bottle. That being said I will say that I beleive that this administration seems to be doing its best to frick things up beyond belief

 I was one of those that opposed from the beginning, however I really have no other opinions as to where to take it from here.

Its just really sad and tragic how many have lost their lives so far in this debacle.
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2006, 11:58:48 AM »
Perhaps a reality check might be in order?

Sadaam, whom we are now told it would have been better to keep in power, prevented civil war by brutally enforcing the hegemony of the Sunni minority via genocide, torture, summary executions, chemical weapons and generally making the life of the Kurds and S h i' i tes a living hell. Every attempt at rebellion or even dissent was crushed in the most brutal fashion possible. To dissent meant not only being tortured and killed yourself, but seeing your family raped and killed prior to your own execution. If you did manage to escape Iraq, your relatives remaining behind would suffer in your place. So yes, a civil war was "prevented" but at an appalling cost.

After Saddam was removed from power, the Sunni terrorist groups in the country immediately began directing their attacks on the Shi'ites knowing that this would destabilize the nation and make consensus impossible. Their hope of course is to make Iraq ungovernable and force the coalition to withdraw, getting the infidels out of the Dar-El-Islam has always been priority one, and that includes the UN and any relief agencies. The Taliban followed the same policy of making it impossible for Westerners to work in the areas under their control, including agencies like the Red Cross.

Now, we are told that "we shouldn't even be in Iraq" because the problem was in Afghanistan. But most sane people realize that as soon as we leave Afghanistan, the current government will quickly collapse and the nation will once again descend into chaos and endless violence. The unlimited supply of new Taliban and Arab Jihadis who stream over the border from Pakistan, and the almost unlimited funding they receive from Petrodollars, will make that inevitable. Even if we had nabbed Bin Laden or made him a martyr, countless other Bin Ladens are awaiting their turn to be the next contenders.

Our stated way of dealing with the problem of Jihad, is to attempt to kill or imprison (and then eventually release) all the active Jihadis, we've been following that approach for decades now, while simultaneously playing Mr. Nice Guy with the forces that produce them. So we kill the members of the terror cell, but we tolerate or encourage the Mosque that encouraged them, the Madrassa that trained them, the Imams that spurred them on, the literature they read, and the countries giving them the money they spent.

Aside from the fact that that approach will never work, it commits us to a "forever war" of attrition. And do we really think we are willing to spend lives for as long as the Jihadis?

But if stamping on them one by one is the best we can come up with, then we'd better stay in Iraq for as long as possible if only to provide a convenient sand-box to which we might attract the newest crops of Jihadis and then kill or capture them. Once we leave, we are back to trying to do that on our own territory, not theirs. And lets face it, once we leave the Dar-El-Islam, and they are able to concentrate on attacking us at home, sooner or later they will pull off an attrocity in the USA of such scale that nothing but massive retaliation will satisfy the public, and which nation are we going to retaliate against?

Edit: Skuzzy is there anyway to modify the board "auto-censor" so we can use the word S h i i t e?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 12:02:42 PM by Seagoon »
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Offline Ping

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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2006, 12:13:55 PM »
Seagoon, why don't you just admit it and say you hate anything that isn't labled Christian.
 You are on your way to being a christian fanatic.

That having been said I will state that I do beleive in God and have a resonable working knowledge of the bible.
I/JG2 Enemy Coast Ahead


Offline Toad

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Iraqi Civil war
« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2006, 12:14:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
If it weren't for people like me (the anti pom-pommers) then you'd all still be slapping each other high-fives for the fantastic job not done in Iraq.

Word.


Incorrect "word", as usual.

I admitted I was wrong on this BBS a long time ago.

You DON'T have anything constructive to offer and it is by your own admission. I guess the truth escapes your blinding insight.

But like I said, your beeching adds so much to the situation and it must be gratifying to stroke yourself, so have at it.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!