Author Topic: New video card, need advice  (Read 827 times)

Offline Redwing

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New video card, need advice
« on: February 27, 2006, 11:51:09 AM »
Ok, I haven't followed hardware development for about 3 years and it shows. I need a new video card and while trying to get myself up to date on what's the standard today I realized I don't even know where to start.

Basically I'm looking for something relatively cheap but not already outdated. I currently have a Radeon 9600, the new one should be better :)

First question, what are the differences between the newer ATI cards? I've found x1300's with 512 mb of ram that are cheaper than x1600's with only 256 mb. Is the newer x1600 GPU really that much better to justify almost twice the x1300s price with half the video memory?

Second question, what cards would you guys recommend in general? Would sticking with ATI be a mistake to begin with? Is NVidia better nowadays?

Third, what's PCI-e?

thanks in advance

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2006, 04:28:48 PM »
Difference between x1300 and x1600?  Honestly I cant tell you in performance terms.  I've never used either one and dont know anyone that has.  I can tell you the hardware difference is a faster processor (different GPU chip revision) on the x1600 and a better bus, and more shader units.  Theoretically it should be faster.  Then of course you have the x1800 and x1900.  

Sticking with ATI isnt a mistake.  Really there isnt much to recommend Nvidia or ATI one over the other.  Same price point cards generally have similar performance, unless you find a deal.  I generally prefer Nvidia, and thats where my experience lies, so I'd be glad to make recommendations in that family for you.  One thing I CAN say about the ATI x1000 family of cards, the drivers are having serious issues right now.  The cards are not performing anywhere near as well as they theoretically should be, and I believe its in the drivers.  How long that will last is impossible to say.  Nvidia had that problem last year with the Geforce 6xxx series cards, now it's ATI's turn.  IMHO, the best bang for the buck these days is the Nvidia 6800GS.  It's nearly at the same speed and fillrate as a 6800GT, is relatively the same pricepoint as a x1600 and in most tests blows it out of the water.  Again though, thats just my opinion.  I'm not an ATI guy.  Also, they could come out with a driver update tomorrow that takes full advantage of the x1600 and that performance difference could reverse.  Who knows?

As for what PCIe or PCIx or PCIex or PCI express is, it is an improvement of the PCI bus that gives the slots faster communication to the CPU.  Thats a very simplified answer, but I dont think you were looking for a white paper on the subject.

Offline 38ruk

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New video card, need advice
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2006, 04:56:56 PM »
What is the rest of your system like?  Its much easier to recommend a video card that will kinda match the rest of your system .  If you know your cpu, ram , power supply ,and motherboard specs that would help.  Or if its a name brand pc , the make and model will do .   Thx


38maw

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2006, 05:07:13 PM »
I did  a lot of research in December on graphics cards and found from reading many reviews on various hardware sites that the highest-performing card for about $200 is the nVidia 6800GS.  This conclusion is as of late December/early January -- I don't know if there are any new models out since then that would change the conclusion.

If you do want to get a 6800GS, I recommend the XFX brand from Newegg.com.  I do not recommend the eVGA brand of the same card -- while the card is probably good, the eVGA packaging is so bad that cards get damaged in shipment.  Also XFX has double lifetime warranty (lifetime for you and lifetime for the 1st person you sell the card to if you resell it later).

The one drawback to the 6800GS is that it does have a substantial fan on it, and that fan can be noisy, although the driver supports different fan speeds for different modes of the card.  I use the free tool Rivatuner to make sure I get sufficient cooling but at a minimum of noise.  If anyone is interested in how, ask me, and I'll explain the process.

Offline Redwing

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« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 03:57:32 AM »
Great info, thanks guys. I'm leaning towards the 6800GS. Turns out most of them are PCI-e. Found an AGP model that's 225 Euro... $250! Compared to the prices at newegg.com that's pretty steep.

As for the rest of my system, I got a Pentium 4 2.6GHz, 1 gig of DDR RAM (PC3200), motherboard is a MSI POS with a 400 MHz / 64 bit FSB and the SiS648 chipset.  No idea on the power supply, I'd have to open the case and have a look. The entire system is about 3 years old and I'm sure the power supply was not the best and most powerful available when I bought the computer.

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 04:21:48 AM »
Hmm.  As of several weeks back, Newegg.com had several AGP versions of the 6800GS, a couple by XFX, a brand that I like.  Now Newegg.com has AGP versions from eVGA, a brand (because of their packaging and products damaged in shipment) I don't like, and BFG, a brand I haven't bought yet.

You can also try zipzoomfly.com, mwave.com, and monarchcomputer.com as places that sell 6800GS cards.

The 6800GS does need at least a 350 W power supply, and you will need two power connectors from your power supply to plug into the 6800GS.  If you don't have two connectors, it is possible to get a Y connector and take power from, say, your floppy drive connector and another separate connector to power the 6800GS.  But I wouldn't take one connector, and split it via a Y connector and then use those two connectors to power the 6800GS as then the power is being drawn all off of one connector to your power supply.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 04:30:19 AM by Brooke »

Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2006, 09:58:30 AM »
Clear up a few errors in the previous posts -

PCI-E - Replacement bus for AGP, higher bandwidth.

PCI-X - Extended PCI slot that runs from 66Hhz up to 133Mhz, nothing to do with graphics cards, mostly used for SCSI cards.

Power Supply - More important than the wattage is the amps available on the +12v rail.
Look for a PSU with around 20 amps on the +12v rail for the latest cards.
Two options -
1) Think future: and get a dual +12v rail PSU, most provide around 20 amps on each rail. (needed for SLI)
2) Think now: and get a single +12v rail PSU, lots avail now putting out over 30 amps.

I went with option (1) and got an Enermax Liberty 500W ($129), dual +12v rails @ 22 amps each.

6800GS not a bad choice, using Rivatuner you can unlock the hidden pipes and vertex shader. If you can then play games without artifacts you have just got a 6800GT for the cost of a 6800GS.
If you do get artifacts use Rivatuner to re-hide them.

Finally PCI-E vs AGPx8 -
As even the AGPx8 bus was never fully used the only advantage at the moment PCI-E holds is the ability to run SLI.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2006, 10:03:52 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2006, 10:48:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kev367th
Clear up a few errors in the previous posts -

PCI-E - Replacement bus for AGP, higher bandwidth.

PCI-X - Extended PCI slot that runs from 66Hhz up to 133Mhz, nothing to do with graphics cards, mostly used for SCSI cards.

Power Supply - More important than the wattage is the amps available on the +12v rail.
Look for a PSU with around 20 amps on the +12v rail for the latest cards.
Two options -
1) Think future: and get a dual +12v rail PSU, most provide around 20 amps on each rail. (needed for SLI)
2) Think now: and get a single +12v rail PSU, lots avail now putting out over 30 amps.

I went with option (1) and got an Enermax Liberty 500W ($129), dual +12v rails @ 22 amps each.

6800GS not a bad choice, using Rivatuner you can unlock the hidden pipes and vertex shader. If you can then play games without artifacts you have just got a 6800GT for the cost of a 6800GS.
If you do get artifacts use Rivatuner to re-hide them.

Finally PCI-E vs AGPx8 -
As even the AGPx8 bus was never fully used the only advantage at the moment PCI-E holds is the ability to run SLI.


Thanks for the notes on PCI-e vs PCI-x.  I have seen people using the terms interchangeably and wasnt aware there was such a thing as PCI-x.  (Learn something new every day :) ).

I agree on the PS.  These new video cards are power monsters.  The 6800 isnt bad, but you go up from there and they EAT power.  I looked at some graphs of the x1000 series cards vs the 7800 series Nvidia cards as far as power consumption, some of the high end cards like the x1900 can pull over 200 watts at boot!  Not only do you need a bigger PS than the old days, you need to almost guarantee its going to keep a stable output under load.  The one Kev listed looks good, although I prefer Antec.  They absolutely guarantee their PS's to run at their rated output.

One note on the 6800 pipes.  As I pointed out in another thread, if you buy the AGP version of the 6800GS you can use RivaTuner to unlock the extra 4 pipes and have a full fledged GT or Ultra on your hands just like Kev says.  If you buy the PCI express version though, you cant.  There are no extra pipes to unlock.  I'm not sure how much that plays into your decision.  The 6800GS has highly rated GPU and memory, and they push the clock speeds up.  The performance is really hard to tell the difference from a GT anyway, even without the extra pipes.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2006, 10:52:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Brooke

The one drawback to the 6800GS is that it does have a substantial fan on it, and that fan can be noisy, although the driver supports different fan speeds for different modes of the card.  I use the free tool Rivatuner to make sure I get sufficient cooling but at a minimum of noise.  If anyone is interested in how, ask me, and I'll explain the process.


Brooke, I'd be interested for sure.  I've never been able to figure out how to get RivaTuner to adjust my fan speed.  I can put in a minimum fan speed but without knowing what the max is supposed to be I'm always afraid of making it go too fast.  

Maybe there's an updated version out.  I need to check on that.

Offline Casper1

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« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2006, 12:50:25 PM »
I have pushed this option in other similar threads, but for what you are looking for, this may be a good option:

http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2707477

Full 3 year warrantly on an ATI card.  Check it out.  I did and am very happy with my decision to do so.  Runs AH2 at full graphics with no problems. (but i needed 1.5 GB RAM to do that, since AH loves RAM)

Offline MINNOW

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New video card, need advice
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2006, 12:06:47 AM »
I just got a Radeon x1300 w/ 512 mb

I must say it rocks!

Upgrading from a Geforce, this card is one bad mamajamma!

My frame rates went from low 20s to mid 70s

Offline Brooke

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New video card, need advice
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2006, 12:30:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Brooke, I'd be interested for sure.  I've never been able to figure out how to get RivaTuner to adjust my fan speed.  I can put in a minimum fan speed but without knowing what the max is supposed to be I'm always afraid of making it go too fast.  

Maybe there's an updated version out.  I need to check on that.


I'll post detailed instructions probably on Sunday.  Rivatuner is a great program for this task.  Without it, fan noise would bother me a lot more with my 6800 GS.

Offline WhiteHawk

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New video card, need advice
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2006, 05:28:01 PM »
man, somebody should do a ' all things being equal except the vid card' and post the benchmark scores.  I cant make up my mind either.

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2006, 07:07:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by WhiteHawk
man, somebody should do a ' all things being equal except the vid card' and post the benchmark scores.  I cant make up my mind either.


There are lots such comparisons on the main-line hardware-comparison sites, such as:

http://www.tomshardware.com/

http://www.anandtech.com

http://www.techwarelabs.com/

http://www.extremetech.com/

Also, a web search on whatever card you are interested in along with terms "review" and "comparison" will turn up a lot.

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2006, 03:33:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Brooke, I'd be interested for sure.  I've never been able to figure out how to get RivaTuner to adjust my fan speed.  


Here is a document on using RivaTuner to minimize fan noise.

http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/misc/riva_tuner/riva_tuner.html