P47- minimum IAS for Immlemans

[Big G]

Hey guys
Does any kind soul have an idea of what the above would be?
It's for both a low G one and a high G one

[YUCCA]

Thats a trick question.  You wanat to know minimum speed for a high G emmel in a jug? I dont really check my speed when doing it soo much i just feel it out.  I would say min speed for a jug to do a proper emmel (without being sloppy) would be 170 ish.  A person could pull off a sloppy move that resembled an emmel at 150 if he worked flaps right.

[YUCCA]

But the jug isn't exactly known for it's verticle skills so.... In most cases i wont attempt a couble emmel against most planes of co-e at start of fight.

[SuperDud]

Here's yucca again, acting like he knows something about the Pee47:rolleyes:

[Big G]

Thanks Yucca, I'm just working on a defensive move and just needed some info.

BigG10

[TequilaChaser]

truely, it depends on which version of the P47 you are talking about Big G,  say it is a P47D11 which in my opinion is the most nimble P47 of the ones we have, you may be able to perform a slower Immelman than for instance try to do the immelman at same speed in a D40 version.........

here is the thing to do.......

practice, over and over and over, especialy for the slow speed/ Low G maneuver.
keep taking your self slower and slower each time noticing the speed you are starting at and finishing up at on top.use your flaps, use cross control of aileron & rudder to keep it straight and from torquing / twisting you

once you find your lowest speed . Practice it at that speed over & over until it becomes sceond nature and you gain a feel for performing it without having to look at the IAS/TAS indicator.......

something else to try, different stick scalings, different trim settings for the elevator ........find what is comfortable for you and where you can perform the maneuver at the second you need it without hesitation.......

Good Luck

[YUCCA]

d11 is the most nimble........however it has the worst climbrate.

[bozon]

I wonder what you consider an Immelman. If all you want is to get over the top and point trhe other way, P47s can do it pretty well from low speeds - but it ain't gonna be pretty or graceful manuver.

To make a pretty upward half circle and roll, you need to hold on to your speed as much as possible. P47 have good momentuum but G's burn a lot of E in them and power to weight is not impressive. Starting at low speeds and viewed from the side the jug will get over the top by almost freezing in mid air and falling to the other side while rolling. Then your nose will be pointed 180 degrees from the original direction but you'll be sinking as much as flying forward initially.

I tried it offline and you could do "it" starting at ~180 mph and ending at 90 mph with flaps out and horn buzzing. By "it" I mean going over the top on your back and rolling. It takes a lot of forward stick when inverted, and you loose some altitude (sinking) after you are rolled and pointed the other way.

Bozon

[TequilaChaser]

I agree with bozon, I just tryed all versions set fuel burn to 0.001 and loaded 50% fuel full ammo loadout ( 3400 rds ) at 2.5k alt I started each Immel at 150 IAS, most every 47 variant couldn't pull it off PURTY like all wanted to roll/spin at top.......but when I started my immel and kicked in WEP at same time the P47D11 did it the best and had slight nose drop.......P47D40 seemed 2nd best, then the P47N, then the P47D25 was awful........

the 40/N/25 models all had a nasty nose drop, the P47D11 had a little nose drop......

this was a quick run/test and did 3 or 4 immelmans in each variant.......

all started 150 IAS most dropped below 50 IAS at top and rolling/lil spin

P47D11 did not and finished out at 85/90 IAS rolling up right to finish off immel, but nose is a dropping......

I am not a P47 fly all the time player, am sure some out there might sqweak it out even slower, with practice.........but you need to ask the question! WHY? and  why this slow?

was fun on any account though  

added: I trimmed each plane for level flight at 275 IAS ( no combat trim used here )

[Roscoroo]

roll the N model on its back at 180  .... chop throttle 1/2 ,,,,bang 2 notches of flaps firewall the throttle  ...voila you own them

[Big G]

Tried it in a d11 and managed to get a decent roll at around 180IAS, nose sunk like hell though, pushed the nose down to get some speed and rolled the other way, again at 180IAS, wasn't pretty but it worked, each time was taking longer to get up to speed again.
This was from 22k, just  trying out some things for the next ETO frame in the AvA arena, I've found that when being bounced by the 109's and 110's ( storch and co lol) Getting them on my 4 or 5 then pulling a low G ACM like an immelman helps to gain some alt and chips away ay their alt advantage.
Thing is, I don't think I could keep it up for more than 2, the second roll was a real dog to do and if that was in the AvA I'd be dogfood for the LW following on.
I don't wanna pull too many High G's as I want to sucker them in to coming down for me, also gets me over in better shape than a high G roll ( I think)
Less speed they have the better.
I hardly use Combat trim either in the AvA, turn it on for a gun solution though.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Big G
Tried it in a d11 and managed to get a decent roll at around 180IAS, nose sunk like hell though, pushed the nose down to get some speed and rolled the other way, again at 180IAS, wasn't pretty but it worked, each time was taking longer to get up to speed again.
This was from 22k,  

as with any plane, I recommend flying & practicing over and over different maneuvers at different speeds ( don't think 3 or 4 times, think 50 to 100 times )

find your lowest stall speeds at different alts, with and without flaps ( or different notches of flaps)

as for being 22K, the air is thinner so performing a maneuver at say 5k alt at 180 vs performing the same maneuver at the same speed at 22K..........the results will be different........keep this in mind when flying at high altitude.......use low G maneuvers at high alt and don't think TnB at high Alt, think E conservation............

[daMIG]

"roll the N model on its back at 180 .... chop throttle 1/2 ,,,,bang 2 notches of flaps firewall the throttle ...voila you own them "

you have a way that sums it up, "Feel it and just do it"

[bozon]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
find your lowest stall speeds at different alts, with and without flaps ( or different notches of flaps)

as for being 22K, the air is thinner so performing a maneuver at say 5k alt at 180 vs performing the same maneuver at the same speed at 22K..........the results will be different........keep this in mind when flying at high altitude.......use low G maneuvers at high alt and don't think TnB at high Alt, think E conservation............

Actually, stall speeds are constants in IAS at all alts. The difference is usually the engine output and the TAS.

As for engine output, one of the nicest things about the jug is that it is almost constant up to 20k and only then starts to drop slowly - due to the superchargers. So you do not feel the loss of power as much as with other planes.

The TAS - IAS gap is what really makes high alt fighting different. TAS determine the kinematics, IAS determines the aerodynamics. Meaning you generally have more speed and less possible lift. The result is larger turning circles, speeds close to stall (IAS) but suprising zoom climbs (TAS).
The P47 really shines here since it has good near stall handling, the power/weight ratio is actually good for those alts, and momentuum becomes more important than engine pull for vertical manuvers. Not to mention that you are used to fly like a fat underpowered pig while other planes might find it suprising.

Bozon