The new generation of fighters

[StarOfAfrica2]

Everybody kinda made a big deal about the F-14 being phased out, and the F/A-18 taking over.  I noticed a general consensus that the newer plane is not the equal of its predecessor.  

Now today I'm reading in the local paper how Hickam AFB is supposedly getting 18 of the F-22 Raptors to replace our current 18 F-15 Eagles (15 active, 3 reserves).  Ok fine.  The F-15, while one of my favorites of all time, is getting a bit dated I suppose.  The F-22 has had alot of hype about it over the last few years, so I thought perhaps it was a worthy successor.  I did some comparing.  And yes I know you cant really compare fighters on paper, theres other things that are harder to measure.  But the specs can give somewhat of an indication.

It was no surprise that in most dimensions, the Raptor comes in smaller than the Eagle.  Only in Wingspan does it exceed the dimensions of the previous bird.  I also noticed the engines put out 10000 lbs more thrust each.  Impressive.  But thats as far as the favorable stuff went.  

The Raptor may be smaller, but its heavier.  4000 lbs heavier.  And despite having bigger engines, the two planes have the same top speed, the same service ceiling, and the F-22 has LESS range than the Eagle by a good 1400 miles.  Of course they compared an Eagle with DTs to a Raptor on internal fuel only.  Does the Raptor HAVE any useable DTs?  They list the range as 2000 miles.  They cant even reach the mainland without refueling.



All this has me wondering.  If the F-14 and F-15 are such incredible platforms (and there are plenty of people willing to attest they are), then WHY are we replacing them with planes that perform worse and cost more to build?  I know the fleets of F-14 and F-15 are aging, but why cant they just build more of them?  Why replace them with a design that does less, doesnt do it nearly as well, and costs more to build?

What am I missing?

[NattyIced]

TEH tHRuST VeKtARS wILL pWnZORZIZ!!!!!!!111111five

[Morpheus]

Super Tomcat.

But noooooo:mad:

[Hoarach]

I maybe wrong but I think the only things that will be put on the Raptor is what they can fit in its bombbay.  By doing this they hope to keep the stealth on the plane and if putting missles or DTs, etc. on the wings it will decrease its stealth.

Cant find the book in my closet but read the Raptor was supposed to cost close to $100 million.

This site I googled to check the price I find to be interesting on its detail on the F22.  F22 Raptor Site

[Sandman]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
What am I missing?

Pork.

[Krusher]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2

It was no surprise that in most dimensions, the Raptor comes in smaller than the Eagle.  Only in Wingspan does it exceed the dimensions of the previous bird.  I also noticed the engines put out 10000 lbs more thrust each.  Impressive.  But thats as far as the favorable stuff went.  

The Raptor may be smaller, but its heavier.  4000 lbs heavier.  And despite having bigger engines, the two planes have the same top speed, the same service ceiling, and the F-22 has LESS range than the Eagle by a good 1400 miles.  Of course they compared an Eagle with DTs to a Raptor on internal fuel only.  Does the Raptor HAVE any useable DTs?  They list the range as 2000 miles.  They cant even reach the mainland without refueling.

What am I missing?

As far as favorable ratings go, stealth vs non stealth is a big one.

On that subject, I would think drop tanks on a stealthy aircraft would be a bad idea.

Short of looking it up, I was under the impression the raptor could go as fast as the eagle without AB's (I could be wrong)

As much as I like the Eagle, Tomcat and F16, as far as fighters go, they are getting old. If it was up to me every country would be using prop planes

[Nefarious]

From what ive read the JSF can do everything the F22 can except possibly "supercruise"....And unlike the F22 it can be deployed from a Carrier.

[Hoarach]

I cant see the f16 being replaced for some time now as it is a very cheap plane to make and effective.  

Just as a perspective what country does not have a f16 besies 3rd world countries?

[StarOfAfrica2]

Originally posted by Krusher
As far as favorable ratings go, stealth vs non stealth is a big one.

On that subject, I would think drop tanks on a stealthy aircraft would be a bad idea.

Short of looking it up, I was under the impression the raptor could go as fast as the eagle without AB's (I could be wrong)

As much as I like the Eagle, Tomcat and F16, as far as fighters go, they are getting old. If it was up to me every country would be using prop planes

I dont know.  All I know is the side by side comparison I was looking at gave the same top speed for both planes.

[Gunslinger]

The raptor can indeed have external DTs.  It does loose alot of stealthyness but the it does have hardpoints on it's wings.  The thinking behind that was that once the intial attack is over and we have air superiority on the battle field there will be less need for the stealth.  



The thing about replacing old A/C is the fact that they are old.  The older an A/C gets the more mait. hours per flying hours required.  The F15 while being a superior aircraft is at it's limitations as far as what they can do with it.  It has peaked so to speak.  Don't get me wrong the eagle is a great bird but some of the older B and C models are dated and need to be replaced.  

I read about the raptor participating in Red Flag a year or two ago in janes or something.  From what I read it OWNED a couple of Eagles that KNEW he was out there.  Stealth and speed kill.  The eagle may be fast but it has to go into AB to keep up.  

This is from FAS.org so i'm not sure of it's accuracy.

The F-15 fleet is experiencing problems with avionics parts obsolescence, and the average age of the fleet will be more than 30 years when the last F-22 is delivered in 2013. But the current inventory of F-15s can be economically maintained in a structurally sound condition until 2015 or later. None of the 918 F-15s that were in the inventory in July 1992 will begin to exceed their expected economic service lives until 2014

The guard will probably start to replace their F15As and Bs over the next few years with news Cs and Ds.  I know a guy that works Egress in St.Louis for the guard and he said they still had Plenty of F-15As.

We just turned one into a static display not to long ago that rolled out from the factory in 1978.

[Hoarach]

The USAF will most likely just have a tanker nearby so they can refuel rather then having to carry DTs and losing its stealth.

[Bodhi]

WHile I am not a Raptor fan, I do know that the Raptor can "super cruise" over the speed of sound, not in after burner, and remain there for a longer time than does a F-15 or F-14 which both require burner to get there.

As for cost per plane, I think a lot of that reflects the development cost as well, and not so much the actual price per unit.


Either way, I doubt we ever get to the point where Raptor's are ever needed to the level that some people think, but hey, I'd rather be prepared.

[Nilsen]

UAV's and cruisemissiles combined with special forces will prolly take out (atleast in theory) most defences on the ground and kill planes before they get up. Not saying that the F22 is a waste, but i doubt there will be a need for a large number of them. I would think that more F35's and planes like the old but rugged A10's would be a good mix.

I cant see USA taking on any country with high-tech systems anyway.. who would that be?

[LePaul]

I dont necessarily think the Raptor is a lesser aircraft  Its built for a similar, yet different mission than the Eagle.  The extra weight seems to be nulled out given the additional engine power, stealth, air/ground capacity and so forth.

I'm not sure about the range issue.  Since adding tanks kills your radar profile.  Like someone else said, if they are going to be hunting deep, I'd bet on a KC-10/KC-135 being strategically placed for ingress/egress.

Also...who knows what the *real* range is versus published.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Nilsen


I cant see USA taking on any country with high-tech systems anyway.. who would that be?

You never know.  Could be China, could be North Korea...Kosovo had some pretty extension radar/SAM systems that took down an F-16 way back when