Author Topic: Bring back dropping fuels to 25%  (Read 8506 times)

Offline dedalos

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2006, 12:14:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gato
Just like so many, you are taking what is said and turning it around.  I didn't say fuel being down to 25% stopped furballing, I said the 'complaint' is that.  The reason to be able to take fuel down IS to limit the fighters and range, at least for a short time.  There is NO other reason to do it!  It is the furballers who keep saying strat is not needed, not the base takers (toolsheders).  

 . . .

Now, lets see if someone can misquote this and turn it around!


Ok, help me here.  Why would the furbalers complain if it has no effect on them?  Do you think they load 100% fuel and drive 4 sectors before they furball?  Most furbals develop between a CV and a base under attack so 25% is plenty for deffenting the base and to furball.  You are absolutly right about taking a base.  What you are forgeting is that there are people and squads, dedicated to porking.  They are the toolshed woriers not the guys trying to take a base.  You confuse them the same way you confuse people that like fighting, deffending, lone wolfing, etc with furballers.  So, the point you are missing is that when you end up with 25% fuel three bases dip, there is no fighting and no deffence.  Only one type of play.  Bud guys comming in high vulching the low and slow cons till the base is taken or the FHs die.

A true furbaler would never complain about the fuel being at 25%.  That is all he needs, he has no hope of RTBing, and it is actually better since that will keep everyone low.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline ChopSaw

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2006, 02:22:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
:rofl For the 1,000,000,000,000 time, that is not what the complain is about.  25% is plenty for furbaling.  When fuel is down to 25% 2 or 3 bases dip, it prevents people from upping fighters, getting some alt and either attack other bases, or deffend.  No furbaler ever loads more than 50% fuel.

The problem is that you guys really cant come out and say that you want to be able to bomb or take bases unoposed (unless you go off line), so you start the furbaler crap and come up with the original idea of sending anyone that could potentialy mess with your base capture, to a different arena or place on the map.


"Two or 3 bases dip?"  Do you mean 2 or 3 bases deep?  If so, you have the statements from DREDIOCK above from which to draw.  The summary of which is his squad, one of the dedicated ones you speak of, was capable of porking fuel over an entire front on some maps, but only one base deep.  Even with the wider spacing in AH1, you could up a fighter from another field to pursue whatever you wanted, defense or offense.  Admittedly you might be able to do a three base deep porking in some sections of a map, particularly the AH2 Maps with their closer fields, but not an entire front.  Such an action would take a lot of people.  Moreover, as Gato states, porking fuel is a double edged blade.  What happens after you take a base you just porked?  Shoes on the other foot then.  I wouldn't be surprised of some of the people begging DREDIOCK's squad to stop porking were from his own country/team.

If, as you say, "25% is plenty for furballing", how is it not enough to defend?  I did it all the time in AH1 as did others.  You're right about it restricting fighter aircraft from adopting an offensive stance from such a field, especially if you're talking about fields with wider spacing such as in AH1, but that's rather the point.  Taking a field down to 25% slowed the advance of an enemy of superior numbers.  It did nothing to their ability to defend the field.  In addition, if they were organized, they just upped from one field back to pursue offense.

Who would be interested in bombing or taking bases unopposed?!  As you say it would as interesting as playing offline.  Not very.  Bombers enjoy adversity.  The tougher it is to get the job done, the more pride we take in doing it.  Contrary to what many here have said, there was greater fighter opposition when bombing in AH1 because bombing had greater effect.  In other words, protecting fuel assets was important and a lot more fighters came up to stop us.  In AH2 many times a fighter will pass bombers right by.  Whatever we're bombing doesn't affect him.  He's looking for another fighter or a gun less troop C-47.

There tend to be two major groups in the MA.  Those who want to pound away at each other without having to worry about resources such as fuel.  Not just fighter aircraft, but gv lovers too.  The second group are those that enjoy a war simulator complete with strategic targets of importance.  Creating two separate arenas, one to cater to each would satisfy both.  One that had settings and maps similar to the ones in AH1 and the other with current settings.  I can't see how you would oppose such a situation.  If you prefer, you can think of it as us being sent to another server rather than you.

Offline ChopSaw

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2006, 04:05:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
Ok, help me here.  Why would the furbalers complain if it has no effect on them?  Do you think they load 100% fuel and drive 4 sectors before they furball?  Most furbals develop between a CV and a base under attack so 25% is plenty for deffenting the base and to furball.  You are absolutly right about taking a base.  What you are forgeting is that there are people and squads, dedicated to porking.  They are the toolshed woriers not the guys trying to take a base.  You confuse them the same way you confuse people that like fighting, deffending, lone wolfing, etc with furballers.  So, the point you are missing is that when you end up with 25% fuel three bases dip, there is no fighting and no deffence.  Only one type of play.  Bud guys comming in high vulching the low and slow cons till the base is taken or the FHs die.

A true furbaler would never complain about the fuel being at 25%.  That is all he needs, he has no hope of RTBing, and it is actually better since that will keep everyone low.


Whether you understand why they complain or not doesn't change the fact they do.  If I were to guess why, I'd have to say they have the impression both sides of a front are taken down to 25% in a situation where fuel porking is possible.  That didn't and wouldn't happen, but if it were to happen it would depress the fighting on said front.  Not eliminate it.  There is also a sub sect of the furballers who don't care for defense furballing.  Rather they prefer to engage in offense and like to furball over enemy bases or perhaps away from bases altogether.  Over enemy bases they also enjoy the prospect of capping the field and vulching.  Reducing fuel to 25% would reduce their capability in engaging in this offense oriented type of furballing.  Again, that's the point.  Reducing your enemy's ability to launch offensive attacks is what being able to reduce the fuel was all about.  It was a mechanism whereby a country/team could offset numerical advantages their enemy might have.  Having eliminated that we now see an even greater divergence in numbers than we did in AH1 and now the numbers always win the situation.  Skilled pilots only get you so far before you're overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Porking fuel is a defensive strategy.  If a country/team has numerical advantage and they are steam rolling their opposition, they do not have an incentive to pork the fields of the enemy they are attacking.  That would be counterproductive for them.  They'd have to wait while the field they just took was re-supplied before continuing their forward rampage.  This means fuel porking only makes sense as a defensive strategy against superior numbers.

You keep saying 25% fuel is plenty for furballing and at the same time you say it's not enough for defense or fighting.  Doesn't make sense.  I'm really trying to understand what you're saying.

Furballing, both offensive and defensive is an integral part of the game and no one seeks to eliminate it.  Only to redirect where it's occurring depending on your teams strategic needs.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2006, 06:53:29 PM »
25% is too low for the furballers.
Dont forget some of these planes are real gas guzzlers.
 50% would be better but really the most effective way to deter the horde/landgrabbers is simply to pork the troops and ord.

Remove ord, or especially troops from the equasion and you will see more often that when faced with the prospect of being unable to do a basecapture without brining in troops from 2 or more bases away that blob of aircraft quickly begins to thin out and only the furballers remain.

If the furball crowd really wants to preserve their prefered style of  play, then their first order of buisness should be to remove troops, and preferably ammo also from the equasion on both sides of the fight
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Offline ChopSaw

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #139 on: March 14, 2006, 07:08:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
25% is too low for the furballers.
Dont forget some of these planes are real gas guzzlers.
 50% would be better but really the most effective way to deter the horde/landgrabbers is simply to pork the troops and ord.

Remove ord, or especially troops from the equasion and you will see more often that when faced with the prospect of being unable to do a basecapture without brining in troops from 2 or more bases away that blob of aircraft quickly begins to thin out and only the furballers remain.

If the furball crowd really wants to preserve their prefered style of  play, then their first order of buisness should be to remove troops, and preferably ammo also from the equasion on both sides of the fight


Removing troops, ordnance and radar are effective measures.  However, it depends on the situation as to which is most desirable at any given time.  In AH2 when faced with numerical superiority, porking troops is the most desirable.  Often the situation also calls for porking ordnance.  Sometimes if you have numerical superiority, porking ordnance or troops is not what you want to do, but nailing radars is a help to your country.  Being able to pork fuel to 25% would simply put back a missing component to the overall strategy system and make it more flexible.  That is, give you another strategic option to pursue to adapt your overall strategy to the situation at hand.

Offline CHECKERS

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #140 on: March 15, 2006, 07:31:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by monteini
I'm all for dropping the fuel to 25%, This would make the planes with more range used ALOT more. 25% FUEL no more la's or spit 16's unless they want 8 min flying time. People would have to up p47's, a6m's, ki-84's, and the like.

nick172


 The Spit 16 & LA7 wine continues......

 That sounds like about as much fun as mowing the lawn, or helping clean out sewer manholes  ......
The LA7 is screwed as it is under the unrealistic 2X fuel burn rate ... Every other plane has either a hugh drop tank or a socalled slipper tank ....


 What the hell makes you think that being "rutt-stuck" (forced into) flying a A6M or early p47 is fun ? ...... You,  go to all the time & trouble to fly one of those  dumb,early, slow crates over to a field ..... drop down to the fight, and the CAP  be waiting with a Spit 8, F5 Hellcats or a Tempest to blow you & your "old crate " all to hell .....

  That Idea sucks !!!
Originally posted by Panman
God the BK's are some some ugly mo-fo's. Please no more pictures, I'm going blind Bet your mothers don't even love ya cause u'all sooooooooo F******* ulgy.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #141 on: March 15, 2006, 08:40:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChopSaw
Removing troops, ordnance and radar are effective measures.  However, it depends on the situation as to which is most desirable at any given time.  In AH2 when faced with numerical superiority, porking troops is the most desirable.  Often the situation also calls for porking ordnance.  Sometimes if you have numerical superiority, porking ordnance or troops is not what you want to do, but nailing radars is a help to your country.  Being able to pork fuel to 25% would simply put back a missing component to the overall strategy system and make it more flexible.  That is, give you another strategic option to pursue to adapt your overall strategy to the situation at hand.


LOL For that matter if you have numerical superiority, porking fuel isnt advantageous either for the very same reasons.

As I said. Porking fuel to 25% is too low as there are alot of planes that are gas guzzlers and from a furball perspective would only ruin the game for the furballer crowd. And you cant stay aloft very long even for a decent base defense

75% is too high as it does next to nothing to slow the horde.
Take the P51D for example, and you can climb to 20K,fly to target, attack target and still hang around for a long long time before having to RTB

50% is better because from what I see most furballs take place  between 1 and 10K in between two fields and not directly over one or the other. This would allow the furballers to meet at that halfway point and still have enough gas to fight before having to either RTB or get killed.

Yet it would be low enough to lower the loiter time (read Vulch) over an opposing field before having to RTB.

Thus it would have a greater effect on the hordewarriors and a lesser effect on the furball crowd.

Im not adverse to being able to pork fuel to lower then it is now.
But in fairness to everyone 25% is too low, and 75% is too high
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Offline ChopSaw

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #142 on: March 15, 2006, 02:00:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
LOL For that matter if you have numerical superiority, porking fuel isnt advantageous either for the very same reasons.

As I said. Porking fuel to 25% is too low as there are alot of planes that are gas guzzlers and from a furball perspective would only ruin the game for the furballer crowd. And you cant stay aloft very long even for a decent base defense

75% is too high as it does next to nothing to slow the horde.
Take the P51D for example, and you can climb to 20K,fly to target, attack target and still hang around for a long long time before having to RTB

50% is better because from what I see most furballs take place  between 1 and 10K in between two fields and not directly over one or the other. This would allow the furballers to meet at that halfway point and still have enough gas to fight before having to either RTB or get killed.

Yet it would be low enough to lower the loiter time (read Vulch) over an opposing field before having to RTB.

Thus it would have a greater effect on the hordewarriors and a lesser effect on the furball crowd.

Im not adverse to being able to pork fuel to lower then it is now.
But in fairness to everyone 25% is too low, and 75% is too high


Of course porking fuel is counter productive if you have superior numbers.  I addressed that in my post on this thread of 3/14/2006 10:05 PM PST, second paragraph.  Couldn't agree with you more.  In fact in AH1 when you had a steam roller going, it was highly frowned upon by your team mates to pork fuel at the fields you were attacking.  Some real flame wars on country channel over that one.

In AH1 where you could reduce fields to 25%, I saw plenty of furballing.  I myself upped a Yak9U, one of your "gas guzzlers", on occasion to defend such fields.  I've also spoken to others who feel the 25% was fine for defending aircraft.  In AH1 and AH2 I fly the Mustang as one of my favorite fighter rides and never up with anything greater than 50%, unless I use drop tanks and then never over 50% internal.  Anything above 50% internal in the Mustang goes into the auxiliary tank which decreases the performance due to balancing issues.  Reducing fuel to 50% would only eliminate drop tanks.  Hardly a penalty as it would still allow an offensive posture from such fields.  May as well keep it at 75% than switch it to 50%.

The whole point of being able to reduce fuel to 25% was being able to inhibit the offensive capabilities of that field.  75% allows an offense, particularly in AH2 with the closer spacing of fields.  50% would only be a slight restriction on that.  25% would put a serious dent in the offensive capabilities even with the closer spacing of  fields found in AH2.  Being able to inhibit offensive capabilities of superior numbers is key to defense against them.

50% would be a step in the right direction, but it really needs to be 25% to once again make fuel as viable a target as say troops.  Right now, nobody bothers taking out fuel.  It's not worth the ordnance.  Under current conditions fuel bunkers are just field decoration.

Offline dedalos

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #143 on: March 15, 2006, 03:48:45 PM »
25% is fine for defending, as long as you like being low, slow, and being vulched.  25% is not enough to come in from a dif field witch is the recomendation of the toolshed wariers to complains about the FH being down

To sum up this thread.  Whaaaaaa furballers :cry
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline LePaul

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #144 on: March 15, 2006, 03:56:18 PM »
Delirium

Why dont you request the banning of bombers all-together and be done with it?  You oppose anything that does any damage to your beloved Fighter Hangars.

I havent seen anyone whose all about how YOU want to play in a very long time.

999000 and Tatertot hardly bomb a thing, they go in NOE because they love gunning from the gun stations.  I've teased 999000 many times that he'd get a nose bleed if he actually climbed to 1,000 ft  :)

Bomber guys didnt ask for the formations or easy bombing...and from what Im seeing, its not always a perfect science based on all the massive craters of misses I see nightly.

But by all means, continue your crusade with "all things bomber are the problem".  (Psst, there's a reason the Germans made attacking them such a high priority...maybe you should too?)

Offline dedalos

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #145 on: March 15, 2006, 04:17:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LePaul
Delirium

Bomber guys didnt ask for the formations or easy bombing...


It was the furballers I tells ya, burn them, burn them!!! :furious
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline ChopSaw

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #146 on: March 16, 2006, 02:58:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dedalos
It was the furballers I tells ya, burn them, burn them!!! :furious


Come here you little fuzzball.  I've got a nice torch for you. ;)

Offline Kev367th

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #147 on: March 16, 2006, 03:36:30 PM »
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Originally posted by Delirium
A squad of 6 guys (and I have a certain squad in mind) would routinely shut down every field's fuel, shutting down game play for 2/3 of the arena.. half couldn't get to the fight, the other half didn't have a fight.

Yea, a whole squad of 6 guys should affect 2/3 of the arena hitting buildings that know really 'mad' acm.


Yup and 5 guys can resup a field to bring it back it fully, one run each.

Oh forgot, thats always "SOMEONE ELSES JOB".
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Offline SlapShot

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #148 on: March 16, 2006, 05:29:52 PM »
Don't know why you guys continue ... ChopSaw has all the right answers ... regardless of anybody's experiences or longevity in this game.

He should probably request a private meeting with HT and pontificate his vast and superior knowledge of AH gameplay to him.

It shouldn't be too difficult to get HT to change his mind ... afterall ... the mindless furballers were able to easy get him to make all these changes. I am sure that someone of higher intellect like ChopSaw could easily persuade HT.
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Offline ChopSaw

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Bring back dropping fuels to 25%
« Reply #149 on: March 16, 2006, 06:55:12 PM »
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Don't know why you guys continue ... ChopSaw has all the right answers ... regardless of anybody's experiences or longevity in this game.

He should probably request a private meeting with HT and pontificate his vast and superior knowledge of AH gameplay to him.

It shouldn't be too difficult to get HT to change his mind ... afterall ... the mindless furballers were able to easy get him to make all these changes. I am sure that someone of higher intellect like ChopSaw could easily persuade HT.


:) Ah.  Sarcasm.  I know it well, having employed it on occasion myself.  For some reason particularly with members of the Burger Kings.  If you see a person doing something obviously wrong and they say they've been doing it that way for twenty years, what do you assume?  That they must be right?  Or do you assume they've been doing it wrong for twenty years?  It would seem from your postings, and those of your squad in general, you feel anyone with an opinion other than yours is not only wrong, but of obviously inferior stock altogether.  I could be wrong.  As you've sarcastically pointed out, I may not have "all the right answers" and may not be possessed of "vast and superior knowledge".

Your opinion is that I'm wrong and not as smart as you think I think I am.  That doesn't bother me too much.  You go on to say I characterize furballers as "the mindless furballers".  That I object to.  I've never said they're mindless.  I've not even said that of you or your squad members nor have I implied it in anything but well deserved returns in banter.  What I have said is that I consider them integral to the game and an important aspect of the game.  I realize this might be construed as such an understatement as to be sarcastic, but I assure you it is not.

Do you assume that because someone has only 3 or 4 years experience in AH that all his analysis and ideas are incorrect if they contrast with those of a person who's played the game for 5 years?

Right now I fly bombers most of the time.  Occasionally I fly fighters and in AH1 I predominately flew fighters, as I may again in AH2.  I also man guns on cv's, fields, shore batteries and cruisers as well as drive around in gv's a bit.  In short I enjoy all aspects of game play in this WWII simulator.  I believe my observations and opinions are the result of a game view, not one select aspect of the game.

My sole interest in returning the fuel vulnerability of fields to 25% is simply to return a balance to the game.  To return a strategic target that was an important part of the strategic system.  In short, to return strategy to the game.  In AH1 it was possible for a country to partially offset a numerical advantage of their opponent by temporarily destroying fuel assets over a selected area.  It was even possible for a country with fewer numbers to win a map reset.  In AH2 this capability has been eliminated or at best critically crippled.  As a result, numbers rule.  Whoever has the most pilots wins.  Every time.  No exception and porking their troops, while somewhat effective at slowing them down, does not slow them down enough.  Superior strategy, cooperation and skill should be winning this game.  Not whoever has the most guys.

You imply that I don't care what others say or think and that is patently false.  I listen and discuss with everyone willing to express support for their position.  I advocate certain ideas that others have had such as hardening fuel bunkers as well as ammo bunkers and indeed troops.  I believe it should require ordnance to bring down these targets, either rocket, bomb or heavy cannon.  It seems a bit light to allow machine guns or even fighter cannon to take them down.

Reducing field fuel supply to 25% won't ruin the game.  It will rejuvenate the game play.  It will mean players will have to think more about what they're doing and for a good number of us, that will make it more fun.  For those that don't care for that sort of game play, the activities they enjoy will not be eliminated, they simply won't be available across the entirety of the map without restriction.