Author Topic: American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?  (Read 3441 times)

Offline Angus

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2006, 01:54:57 AM »
Hehe, Bruno, I think I follow. And basically I agree with MOST of what you just posted.
This one though:
"Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43"

Makes me wonder. The feel is that training and hours were at the peak in 1940 then the road went down all along, with the average LW pilot being cannonfodder in 1944. But that's just me, and you could have some good source for this 1943 data.

Then that one:
"An Allied enemy with a clear numerical advantage, an enemy with pilots who had plenty of time on the job training."

Yes, yes, but while it has a lot to do with comparison, it has nothing to do with the LW crashing in it's own training. Look at what you said here:
"The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW"

Lack of space???? How much territory does the third reich have in 1943??? They have plenty of space. Look at how many pilots were trained in "little" Britain, and then compare that to ranges of fighters of both forces as well as the size of Britain compared to German occupied soil. Man, they had all the space in the world. But they still Fu##ed up...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

storch

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2006, 06:37:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Hehe, Bruno, I think I follow. And basically I agree with MOST of what you just posted.
This one though:
"Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43"

Makes me wonder. The feel is that training and hours were at the peak in 1940 then the road went down all along, with the average LW pilot being cannonfodder in 1944. But that's just me, and you could have some good source for this 1943 data.

Then that one:
"An Allied enemy with a clear numerical advantage, an enemy with pilots who had plenty of time on the job training."

Yes, yes, but while it has a lot to do with comparison, it has nothing to do with the LW crashing in it's own training. Look at what you said here:
"The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW"

Lack of space???? How much territory does the third reich have in 1943??? They have plenty of space. Look at how many pilots were trained in "little" Britain, and then compare that to ranges of fighters of both forces as well as the size of Britain compared to German occupied soil. Man, they had all the space in the world. But they still Fu##ed up...
angus I believe the little british pilots were trained in the United States and Canada for the most part and in reasonably secure airspace.

Offline Angus

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« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2006, 11:20:39 AM »
Ehhh,,,nope.
In Wales and Scotland for many of them.
But Commonwealth pilots were often pre-trained or fully trained at home, and this is a good point.
And LW training sites? Bavaria very much, which is until 1944 or so very much more out of range from enemy fighters than Scotland or Wales, which were out of the 109's range, but yet got bombed in 1940.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2006, 01:48:40 PM »
Quote
Lack of space????


I am not referring to 'square miles' but to the fact that as allied numbers grew they were able to roam Germany at will attacking anything that moved, from air fields to road ways, rail ways, even farm animals were not safe. I can post many examples of pilots in training being attacked or forced into the fight.

Norbert Hannig while serving as an instructor at Liegnitz (Ergänzungs-Jagdgruppe Ost) for example. Hannig's pupils were mostly new pilots and / or pilots transferring to fighters from bombers. Anyway, Hannig goes on to write that the Ergänzungsgruppen were to set-up Einsatzstaffel from existing pupils and instructors (3 Schwärme; 2 instructors, 2 pupils per schwarm).

These Einsatzstaffel would be pressed into battle against the Ami bombers:

Quote
By this time all training had been shut down at Liegnitz and the twelve Fw 190A-6s of the Einsatzstaffel prepared for take-off. When I climbed into the cockpit of my machine and checked the controls I discovered that a screw was inhibiting the full travel of the throttle. This had the effect of reducing engine output by ten per cent, which was a justifiable measure on training aircraft. It helped protect the engine and increased its number of flying hours. But in combat it could mean the difference between life or death if maximum engine power was not available.

When I asked the mechanic why this blocking screw had not been removed his answer was, 'Orders from above. They say enemy fighters aren't normally to be reckoned with in this part of the world - only those escorting bomber formations.'

The order to scramble was given. We took off in Schwärme, the Staffelkapitän leading the first with me heading the Rotte alongside him. Next came Heino Cordes and Michelka with their wingmen, followed by the two remaining Schwärme. I knew none of the trainees flying the wing positions. They were all pupils of other instructors.

It was about 11.00 hours an a beautiful summer's day; a blue sky with patches of cumulus sailing along between 1,000 and 4,000 metres., drawing little herds of shadows across the face of the peaceful sunlit landscape below. We climbed steadily northwards, the direction from which the enemy would appear. As we climbed we checked our R/T (ad lib: guess what they worked) and switched on our weapons. The 'armed' indicator lights came on and the clicking of the cannon breeches could be clearly heard through our lightweight summer helmets - all part of the routine for the old hares among us, but a new experience for the six trainees.

'To all cyclists, to all cyclists! Furniture vans now Hanni 7000, course east over the Baltice north of Rügen...

Hanni was the codeword for Höhe, or height. In other words, the enemy bombers were now north of the Baltic island of Rügen still headed eastward at an altitude of 7000 metres. The Staffelkapitän acknowledged receipt of the report with a 'Viktor, Viktor as we continued to climb to the same altitude as the bombers and attack them head-on. Each Schwarm was flying echelon right. I was in the number 3 slot to the leader. On either side of me the trainees were holding station well.

Again the controller's voice sounded in my ears: 'To all cyclists, to all cyclists! Furniture vans turning south direction Wollin, Hanni 7000... I repeat...' At a combined closing speed of something like 800km/h the distance between our two formations was now diminishing rapidly. With about 200 kilometres, or fifteen minutes to go before estimated time of contact I was keeping a sharp lookout ahead for the first sign of enemy bombers. We would have very little time to position ourselves properly for a frontal attack, and the firing pass itself would be over in a split second. We could probably be able to score a few hits, but actually to bring down a bomber would be a matter of pure luck.
[/i][/b]

Before Hannig's Schwarm got into firing position the Staffelkapitän's engine in his Fw 190A-6 began emitting black smoke and his power fell off. He lost speed and began to drop altitude. Hannig and the two trainees of the Schwarm stayed with the Staffelkapitän. Hannig goes on to describe watching the other 2 Schwärme attack the bombers above. Seeing this he leads the 2 trainees back to altitude to attack the bombers.

He describes making a firing pass through the bombers and then seeing high condensation trails above them grouped in bunches of 4. Soon these were identified as Mustangs. Hannig writes:

Quote
Within seconds I had four, then eight, then twelve Mustangs sitting on my tail. But while I was flying close above the stream they were unable to open fire on me for fear of hitting the bombers. This dubious sanctuary did not last long. The high combined closing speed which had protected us during our frontal assault of the bombers now worked against me and I soon found myself hurtling past the last squadron in formation and out into clear sky beyond.

I immediately began to yo-yo; turning steeply, diving and climbing, climbing and diving. My pursuers didn't seem to know what to make of my Russian front aerobatics. They clung on grimly behind me, but couldn't hold me in their sites long enough to get in an effective burst. I spied a welcome bank bank of cumulus ahead of me and slightly below. After three more complete circles I was directly above one of the larger clouds. I yanked the stick to my belly and trod hard on full right rudder. My machine spun down into the cloud below.
[/i][/b]

He goes on to describe how the Fw righted itself just under the clouds and how he spotted the P-51s above circling. He then 'put his nose down and got out of there'.

During this time he heard the cries the other LW pilots over the radio. Some bailing out, some on fire, some forced to ditch etc...

He then heard Heino Cordes calling for help. Cordes went to the deck and was headed south with a P-51 in pursuit with three more trailing. Hannig spotted Cordes passing under him and replied:

Quote
'Hang on, Heino,' I shouted, ' I am coming down.' I dived towards the ground as fast as my doctored throttle would allow. At a range of 300 metres I let loose a few bursts at the three P-51s bringing up the rear of the chase. When they spotted me they broke into a 360 degree turn which put them out of the running for a while.

Now I could concentrate on the Mustang sitting behind Heino. He showed no sign of abandoning the pursuit. But if I wanted to knock him off Heino's tail it would have to be a team effort. Heino would have to move out of the way the instant I said so. Otherwise the fire I directed at the P-51 might hit Heino's machine directly ahead of it as well.

I edged closer, 'Heino, get ready - left rudder now!' Heino had just put on right rudder. By reversing almost immediately he took the Ami pilot by surprise. The Mustang was still fishtailing full right rudder and suddenly there was empty sky in front of him. I had the clear field of fire I needed. At this range I could not miss. And at this altitude the result was inevitable. The Mustang's nose went done a fraction and it cartwheeled into the ground. The other  three P-51s which had been closing in behind me broke off and climbed away to rejoin the formation high above.

I closed up alongside Heino. " Any idea where we are?' I asked in plain language. 'My red light's starting to flicker.' 'I haven't got a clue,' he answered, 'But the Oder should be coming up soon.'
[/i][/b]

They made their way home. Upon landing Heino's FW had 21 50 cal holes in the wings and fuselage. Hannig's FW was damaged as well.

Of the 12 FW 190A-6s sent up (6 instructors, 6 trainees) one landed with undamaged with engine trouble (Staffelkapitän's), two returned damaged (Hannig's and Heino's), five made emergency landings with their pilots wounded, dead or dying, and four pilots bailed out, two being shot while hanging in their 'chutes. One of the pilots who bailed out described what happened to him and that P-51s made several gun passed on his parachute as it laid on the ground. He was lucky to make to a potato patch and hide while this was going on.

Online Oldman731

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #94 on: March 13, 2006, 02:33:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
Of the 12 FW 190A-6s sent up (6 instructors, 6 trainees) one landed with undamaged with engine trouble (Staffelkapitän's), two returned damaged (Hannig's and Heino's), five made emergency landings with their pilots wounded, dead or dying, and four pilots bailed out, two being shot while hanging in their 'chutes.  

Thanks for posting this, Bruno.  Obviously killshooter was off.  In fairness to Angus, he was making the point that LW was able to train in almost complete safety up until the summer of 1944, when this incident evidently occurred.

- oldman

Offline Bruno

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #95 on: March 13, 2006, 03:49:26 PM »
That's not what Angus said at all. He is simple playing 'I got you now...'.

Read what I said:

Quote
No doubt many LW veteran pilots were lost over the course of the war but the decline of the LW was not due to the loss of these LW 'super-aces'. As the LW was forced to expand it was unable to train replacement pilots to same level as those early war veterans. The need to get as many pilots / aircraft into the air led to reduced training times, coupled with the lack of fuel and resources for training and the lack of space to safely train replacement pilots, had a greater impact on the fighting ability of the LW. Not only did allied numerical superiority grow as the war progressed, the quality of allied pilots and equipment (especially in the west) increased.


I said the overall decline of the LW was the result of the three things I quoted above:

1. Rapid expansion
2. Lack of fuel and resources
3. Lack of safe air space

I then went on to say:

Quote
Training didn't began to break down until mid / late '43. The rapid acceleration and expansion of the LW began in late'43.

 
Now where did I say that in '43 that the LW lacked space? The above quote was to point out to Angus that we are talking about late in the war. He originally started going on about 1940 such and such...

It took years to get get pilots trained. When Reschke joined the LW in the spring of '42 he didn't get to a combat squadron until June '44.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     Hannig joined the LW in '41 and didn't get to JG 54 until '43.


The area of training crucial to surviving in combat, especially in the west,  was the last phase in which Hannig was an instructor. But even then the training was limited.

Hannig states:

Quote
My first trio of pupils were all officers. They had previously been training-school instructors themselves and possessed a vast wealth of flying experience. But they were complete novices when it came to operational flying and combat tactics. It was my task to impart to them the knowledge I had gained at the front. If I succeeded they would hopefully not only survive, but become a welcome and useful addition to the Geshwader's front-line strength.

But even at this late, indeed final, stage of a fighter pilot's training there was still one glaring deficiency. I was unable to provide them with any sort of gunnery practice, against either air or ground targets. The complicated art of aerial marksmanship was taught by pure theory alone. There was not even an official manual to explain the complexities of deflection shooting, the amount of lead required to hit a target, and other such essentials. Instructors had to devise their own teaching aids and get fundamental principals across as best they could. Pupils would receive their first practical demonstration at the front where, if they were lucky, they would find themselves flying as wingman to a number 1 who could show them how it was done.
[/i][/b]

I am not talking about learning to take-off and land but learning how to fight and survive. Operational training, like described in Hannig's book and quoted above, is the last phase before being sent to a squadron.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 04:02:50 PM by Bruno »

Offline Angus

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2006, 01:52:26 AM »
Oh, Bruno.
The third reich covered much more space than just Germany. In comparison with the British, from 1940 onwards, the LW could easily train pilots in a safe zone, - so could the RAF. The third reich's deepest parts could NOT be reached by enemy fighters before 1944. (2 factors, - D-day and P51's). So lack of space has nothing to do with their pilot shortage before 1944.
As for the training, I would think 2 years would be a very generous number. Did Hartmann have 2 years? Did the RAF cruise on 2 years?
An old friend of mine entered training on Tiger Moths in the fall of 1940 and had his first dogfights with 109's from the Abbeville gang  in September 1941....just to give an example.
But for this:
"1. Rapid expansion
2. Lack of fuel and resources"
I wholeheartedly agree. The LW screwed up their amount of trained pilots in comparison with the production boost. And bear in mind that the numbers of pilots needed are somewhat less than the number of aircraft manufactured, for the simple reason that you can trash a plane and survive, but (except in the oddest events) not loose a pilot without the plane.
Rudorffer got shot down 17 times, Rall 8 times, Galland some few times, Mölders, 2+, Hartmann trashed some aircraft, etc, etc.
And the fuel...the shortage could keep active squadrons on the ground, - then say alone trainees...
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Bruno

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #97 on: March 14, 2006, 11:10:30 AM »
Quote
The third reich covered much more space than just Germany.


Angus,

Its not worth discussing anything with when you can't grasp what I said.

Quote
The third reich's deepest parts could NOT be reached by enemy fighters before 1944.


No shyte, now quote where I said other wise...

Offline Angus

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #98 on: March 14, 2006, 01:14:00 PM »
Lol, you're right. Didn't actually spot this yet.
This is what i was looking at :
"I said the overall decline of the LW was the result of the three things I quoted above:

1. Rapid expansion
2. Lack of fuel and resources
3. Lack of safe air space"

And number 3 is the part that is only relevant in '44/'45, so we agree.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Knegel

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #99 on: March 14, 2006, 01:15:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Say, what ever happened to all those "expertent" from '43 and below?


Hi,

1. In the whole war, but specialy in 44/45 the number of 'Experten' was relative smal in relation to the not experten.

2. The 'Experten' often was able to avoid a fight if they was in disadvantage.

3. Most allied pilots who did meet a Expert cant talk about them.

4. Also the 'Experten' couldnt see all and got shot down by suprise, like around 80% of all fighter kills in WWII.

5. Also the 'Experten' had problems to handle 5-10 enemy fighters at once.

6. Also the 'Experten' could meet a very good allied pilot.

7. Many got lost while the absolut crazy groudattacks in Januar 45.

8. Some didnt fly any more, or at least not often(higher rank).

If you read about how Hartmann was avoiding fights without a clear advantage, or how Hermann Graf did paint his plane like P51´s and did imitate their flyingstyle to stay 'invisible', you can get a idea where the german Experten was.

Who do you think shot down all the allied planes in 1944/45, although they was much higher in numbers??

Of course the kill/loss ratio of the Luftwaffe started to go to minus in mid 1944, but do you realy think one of the new pilots, with no real combat training had a chance to shoot down a fighter??

Most JG30X pilots wasnt fighter pilots at all. They got groups from other Squads as topcover, cause they wasnt able to make a good fight, also hadycapped by the heavy armned and particular heavy amored planes they had.


Greetings,

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #100 on: March 14, 2006, 01:18:52 PM »
There ya go... :p

Quote
And number 3 is the part that is only relevant in '44/'45, so we agree.


I wasn't going admit that, I hoped you would spot it...

FYI,

'Number 3' isn't only relevant to '44/'45 as things got progressively worse.

I mentioned the rapid build up for Bodenplatte (1 Jan '45). They even had 'ferry pilots' flying combat...

And the fuel situation only got worse...

Offline Angus

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American rides under modeled? LW rides broken?
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2006, 03:39:59 AM »
Here's a few grains that I read somewhere.
In the worst days of fuel shortage, Pilots were asked to save fuel on return flights by gliding.
Oxen were used to pull aircraft around the ramps.
I belive it was Steinhoff's squadron (before he moved on to 262's) that could only keep 4 aircraft airborne due to fuel shortage.
(I can dig that up if you want the original text, think I know where it is)
But drinks were usually available in good quantity. When 65 sqn RAF moved to the former LW base in Bruxelles in late '44 they found huge stockpiles of Champagne and Brandy! I have a very funny story on that one ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline joeblogs

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Aces Wild
« Reply #102 on: March 15, 2006, 07:55:21 AM »
I remember that book, enjoyed it immensely.

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
...Back in 1998, I had the opportunity to review the final draft manuscript of Al Blackburn's book, Aces Wild: The Race for Mach One. Al was a North American test pilot, and he worked under Welch. Al's book chronicles the events occurring at Muroc back in the summer and fall of 1947. ...