Author Topic: A question about guns...  (Read 2150 times)

Offline Maverick

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A question about guns...
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2006, 03:58:17 PM »
Smidsy,

Yep you are missing something. Example, typical 9mm round (projectile) is about 115 to 118 grains weight. Typical .45 projectile is about 180 to 230 grains. There is a significant difference in weight and also frontal diameter for impact transmission.
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Offline fartwinkle

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A question about guns...
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2006, 07:10:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SMIDSY
i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?


The 45 acp has the ability to load up a much larger bullett I use 230grn in mine.
Also the energy the round creates at impact is night and day.

Have seen reports of perps being hit three times with 9mm and they still charged.
Remember the air force dude that was shot by the cop a few weeks ago?
he was hit three time at about 3ft range with a 9mm and lived.
If he had of been hit with a 45 acp he would have more than likely died.

Offline john9001

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A question about guns...
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2006, 07:34:00 PM »
45cal ACP also know as "the flying ashtray"

Offline Masherbrum

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A question about guns...
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2006, 07:58:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SMIDSY
i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?


Here goes: (from my Criminalistics Notes, my friend/Instructor worked out of the Michigan State Police Crime Lab)

So why choose a .45 if a good 9mm produces equal wounds?

While the best (or worst depending on your point of view) 9mm wounds are about equal to the least effective .45s - and in some cases produce even larger diameter but shallower wounds - you pay for this by compromising the consistency of your cartridge performance.

A 9mm hollowpoint that gives consistent 12 inch penetration in gelatin in the lab sometimes gives 8 – 10" penetration in real flesh and blood targets and sometimes it gives 3 or 4" penetration and as little as 1/2" penetration with 125 gr. .38 +P jhp (and no it did not disintegrate nor glance off - it just stopped). If you happen to be shooting the one that gives 3" penetration, you might as well be shooting spit wads.

If you compare bullets of similar technology the larger bore shows proportional performance.

A .45 230 gr. Ball round destroys about 1.7 times as much tissue as a 9mm ball round. A 230 gr. .45 jhp destroys about 1.7 times as much tissue as a 9mm 124 jhp that expands. The thing is, due to its mass the 230 grain .45 gives more consistent penetration. While it is difficult, you can make a .45 an inefficient performer. You do this by lightening the bullet and increasing the velocity. While some 185 gr. .45’s, reportedly, are well constructed and give fairly consistent penetration, some are not.

So, do the medium bores lack "stopping power", "shocking power" or what ever term you choose to use. Yes they do. So do the .45 Auto and the .44 magnum and the .223 so that is not the defining issue. The issue is that they are less likely to drive their bullet - given equal placement - through an important target with adequate damage to the organ.

Bottom line: shoot the biggest caliber you can handle.

Karaya
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Offline Masherbrum

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A question about guns...
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2006, 08:00:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
45cal ACP also know as "the flying ashtray"


Only the 200gr. bullet was named this for the expansion this rounds goes through.  HOWEVER, the draw back is it COMMONLY misfeeds in ALL types of .45's.   I currently have CorBon +P 230 gr. in my USP 45.  It gets me 950-ft/s.  

Don't get me wrong it is a VERY EFFECTIVE cartridge (200gr.), it's just not reliable.  I believe it is due to the slope of the bullet, and it gets hung up on the ramp.

Karaya
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 08:02:42 PM by Masherbrum »
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Re: A question about guns...
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2006, 08:05:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Timofei
You have the extra 1000$ and you wan't to buy something. OK. But a gun ?
That is the best use you can find for that money ? Sheesh....

Gun nuts....:confused:


Wow, how intelli...I mean Infantile.  That's the best you can come up with?!   You chose to not to own a firearm.  Great, I respect your decision.  Now, sit down, shut up and don't try to inflict YOUR CHOICE on mine.  

Karaya
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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A question about guns...
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2006, 10:07:15 PM »
The flying ashtray was actually the 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity from CCI. Might not even be available anymore. I carried a 45 at work 20 years or so ago, and that was the issue load. I think it was a "Lawman" brand by CCI. We used the cheap Blazer version for practice, the agency didn't reload, and didn't allow you to collect the brass either. The Blazer version had a non reloadable aluminum case.

It is correct that the 230 required fitting and pistol smithing in MOST guns. The armorer at the agency profiled and polished the feed ramp, and adjusted the magazine guides at the top. It was a requirement that the guns run 500 rounds without a failure to feed, fire, or eject before they were issued. The "chief" was a good guy, and looked after the guys on the street, so our weapons were first rate, and well maintained. I left shortly after he was dismissed for backing a fellow officer in an unpopular (with certain elements of the public) non fatal shooting. Shortly after the "chief" was dismissed, I was tagged for excessive force, the new guy refused to back me, so after I won the civil suit, I told them to shove the badge.

Kimber is nice.

Sig P220 is as well.

Dan Wesson Patriot or Pointman also shoot very well, at least the ones I've shot.

Be aware that 1911 pattern guns must be cocked before they can be fired, and as such are actually single action first shot. Very short, and very light trigger pull. It leaves you confronting an opponent with your finger on the trigger of a cocked firearm with a short 3-5 pound trigger. It requires extra training and focus to avoid a stress induced AD. So long as you are trained, focused, and comfortable with that, then you cannot do much better than a 1911 pattern 45 like the Kimber or the Dan Wesson.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2006, 10:15:17 PM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
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Offline lazs2

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A question about guns...
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2006, 09:11:00 AM »
I have a kimber with night sights... it is on the table next to me and a good, reliable firearm that I put in a suitcase and have on the nightstand.

I also have a smith and wesson 340pd that weighs 12 oz.  and is a .357.

it kicks like holy hell and is no fun to shoot but... can be fired from inside a pocket and is as easy to carry as a cell phone and is utterly reliable.

I also have a cut down ruger redhawk in 44 mag that I shoot more than any other gun... it is more accurate and harder hitting than either of the other two and it is (to me) pleasant to shoot for the first 50-100 rounds.   I trust it without question.

I can think of many different situations where any of these guns would be the best choice.  

I enjoy shooting and reloading so.... along with a dozen more.... I have all of em.

lazs

Offline indy007

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« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2006, 11:53:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SMIDSY
i dont understand how a 2mm difference between a 9mm and a .45 could make that much of a difference. am i missing something?


Had to dig this out of my photobucket, but .45 on top, 9mm on bottom. It's quite the difference when you compare the volume of each shell.


Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2006, 12:10:58 PM »
Thats actually a 45 long colt. 45 acp is still a big jump from 9mm anyways you slice it.
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Offline lazs2

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A question about guns...
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2006, 02:41:19 PM »
45 colt and 45 acp are essentialy the same round.... same velocity and energy and both are .451/.452   at one time the old colt was .454 tho.

lazs

Offline Morpheus

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A question about guns...
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2006, 03:44:35 PM »
Quote
45 colt and 45 acp are essentialy the same round....


are you on drugs?

not even factory ammo between the two rounds come close to comparing to eachother.

before you come back saying I'm wrong look at a reloading book.

http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45acp.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45lc.JPG
http://www.furballunderground.com/blueknights_pictures/files/1/45lc_ruger.JPG

I have even managed to stuff casule loads into my ruger bisley and its as tight as a drum still.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 04:11:15 PM by Morpheus »
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Offline Masherbrum

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A question about guns...
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2006, 05:39:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The flying ashtray was actually the 230 grain jacketed hollow cavity from CCI. Might not even be available anymore.
 


"CCI/Speer has announced the demise of its famous 200 gr. "flying ashtray" JHP."

Source:  http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_46/ai_64259193
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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A question about guns...
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2006, 05:52:46 PM »
I love my HK USP 45! Holds 12 rounds, very accurtate, extrewmely well built.

The Sig P220 is an excellent .45 as well and it might fit you better if you have a smaller hand.

A new choice is the Springfield XD45ACP. It holds 13 rounds of .45 in a very compact grip.  It just came out nad everyone really likes them.

And finally a 1911, Kimber is a great brand!

Offline Masherbrum

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A question about guns...
« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2006, 05:55:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I love my HK USP 45! Holds 12 rounds, very accurtate, extrewmely well built.


How are you liking that piece of artwork GRUN?  ;)   I haven't cleaned mine since I fired it back in Jan.  Maybe I'll clean it tomorrow.  They just ARE that damned good.

Karaya
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC