Author Topic: Misquoting Jesus  (Read 860 times)

Offline DREDIOCK

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Misquoting Jesus
« on: March 16, 2006, 07:40:29 AM »
Seagoon, Have you read it yet?
Looks like an interesting read

Scholar Bart Ehrman's new book explores how scribes -- through both omission and intention -- changed the Bible. Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why is the result of years of reading the texts in their original languages.

Ehrman says the modern Bible was shaped by mistakes and intentional alterations that were made by early scribes who copied the texts. In the introduction to Misquoting Jesus, Ehrman writes that when he came to understand this process 30 years ago, it shifted his way of thinking about the Bible. He had been raised as an Evangelical Christian.



Misquoting Jesus
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline Sandman

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 10:18:28 AM »
The author was on the Daily Show the other night.

Sounds interesting.
sand

Offline Maverick

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 11:53:25 AM »
Until Mr. Peabody invents the "way back machine" it will be impossible to determine the validity of any quote for certain.
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Offline midnight Target

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 11:58:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
The author was on the Daily Show the other night.

Sounds interesting.


Loved it when Stewart said "It's a Helluva book."

Offline midnight Target

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 12:18:28 PM »
Actually he said there was evidence that proved that one of the stories about Jesus never happened..

unfortunately I forget which story it was.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 12:31:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Actually he said there was evidence that proved that one of the stories about Jesus never happened..

unfortunately I forget which story it was.


John 8:7
sand

Offline Seagoon

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 09:34:10 PM »
Howdy Dred,

Sorry about the delay in replying, I just got back from a 3 day conference in SC so this is my first chance to read the AH BB in serveral days.

In answer to your question, I haven't read Ehrman's latest book. Actually, I first heard about it late last month on Al Mohler's Radio Show when a caller asked about it roughly 15 minutes into the show (Mohler is the president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary).

While I don't know the book, I do know of the author, Bart Ehrman. Ehrman is a prof. at UNC Chapel Hill. His history is almost exactly the reverse of mine, he was initially inclined towards fundamentalism, and attended two evangelical colleges, but gradually grew more and more skeptical towards the claims of the Christian faith until he abandoned Christianity entirely. He now describes himself as an agnostic, although given his rejection of the truth claims of the Christian faith, and embracing of the entire higher critical agenda, I think atheist would be more accurate. I on the other hand attended secular schools and started out as an utter skeptic about Christianity, rejecting its historicity until my conversion in 1993. Unlike Ehrman, I have no doubts about the historicity of the New Testament (NT).

To tell the truth, I don't have plans to read Ehrman's new book as it doesn't seem to differ much from most of his earlier works (except in the sense of being more comprehensive and aimed at the popular market), and he isn't advancing anything that hasn't already been put forward many times since the late 19th century, most notably of late by the Jesus Seminar, and I've had my fill of "Jesus as Legend, Gospel as Kerygma" type of books. I'll be frank that I also have a tight reading schedule at the moment as I'm putting together the bibliography for my own Th.D thesis and (godwilling) associated book, which with the reading I do for sermons, bible studies, means I'll be "booked" till roughly 2009.

I did a brief write-up on the accuracy and historicity of the NT in a reply to Sandman located here the link I reference there is still one of the best "quick" summaries of evidence for the reliability of the New Testament Scriptures.

Anyway, if you are looking for some readable replies to "modern" skeptical critiques of the New Testament, the following books are all good resources written by NT scholars:

Jesus Under Fire
The Historical Jesus
The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?
Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism

If you've already read Ehrman, you might want to try one of the above in order to weigh the Christian reply in the balance.

Good to hear from you. See you in the MA - be looking for the Rook Key Lime Pie LA5. ;)

- SEAGOON
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Offline ClevMan

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2006, 11:44:23 PM »
Seagoon, you go to Southeastern Baptist Seminary?

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2006, 12:02:38 AM »
Hi Clevman,

No, I graduated from Westminster Theological Seminary (http://www.wts.edu), went to the University of St. Andrews before that.

- SEAGOON
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"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline phookat

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2006, 09:18:48 AM »
Seagoon-- if you don't mind me asking, did your conversion occur in close proximity to your marriage?

Offline Seagoon

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2006, 11:19:27 AM »
Hi Phookat,

Interesting question. Yes, but the two were only peripherally related. Neither I, nor my wife were evangelical Christians at the time of our marriage and we were married in a very theologically liberal church pastored by a man who didn't believe the word of the bible.

Both of us, however were being brought to "an end of ourselves" at that point in our lives, so our conversion was almost simultaneous. My wife was actually very convicted that she was in the process of marrying a man who was sunk in paganism and the occult and who had no relationship to Christianity whatsoever (she had been raised nominally Christian.) This actually provoked a crisis in her at that time, because she began to realize how far she was from God and sensed she was continuing to go further and further away. She also realized, long before I did, that she was marrying someone whose moral convictions were firmly planted in mid-air, who wasn't constrained by anything other than "I will do whatever seems right in my own eyes" and whose word ultimately wasn't worth very much. This dovetailed with my own realization that I wasn't "a good person" as I had always convinced myself, and that if there was a heaven, I certainly wasn't worthy of entrance into it. Also, for the first time in my life I was being forced to really grapple with the question "What's the big deal about Jesus?" The answer to that came for me when I first realized the true import of verses in the bible like John 3:36 and Romans 3:21-26

For someone who had been studying religions uniformly made up of "do", the message of "done" was like the lifting off of a heavy burden.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline phookat

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2006, 12:57:33 PM »
Interesting.  Reason I ask is, I have a bunch of friends in my circle who were pretty hardcore Christians.  Some of them started reading books on both sides of the Historical Jesus debate, such as the books you mention above, as well as authors such as Elaine Pagels, or the book by Earl Doherty here.  Those who looked into it ended up being convinced by Pagels and other authors--but the kicker is, all of them were (and are) unmarried.  Those of my Christian friends who got married stayed religious, usually refusing to consider the question at all or look at books by the likes of Pagels.

Offline Thrawn

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2006, 01:01:11 PM »
Seagoon, do you still have an accent?

Offline Seagoon

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2006, 02:24:57 PM »
Hi Phookat,

Quote
Originally posted by phookat
Interesting.  Reason I ask is, I have a bunch of friends in my circle who were pretty hardcore Christians.  Some of them started reading books on both sides of the Historical Jesus debate, such as the books you mention above, as well as authors such as Elaine Pagels, or the book by Earl Doherty here.  Those who looked into it ended up being convinced by Pagels and other authors--but the kicker is, all of them were (and are) unmarried.  Those of my Christian friends who got married stayed religious, usually refusing to consider the question at all or look at books by the likes of Pagels.


Prior to becoming a Christian, I was a practicing occultist and while I had done quite a bit of reading on religions and sects generally. The interesting thing is that the majority of reading I did on other religions (aside from the text book and history of religion variety) where books written by apologists for those religions. So for instance, when I read on Hinduism, I went back to the Vedas and then read books on Hinduism by supporters and promoters of that religion. The same was true of Islam, Buddhism, etc. I was generally either intrigued by those religions or was an open admirer of them, and often did the post-modern "integration" of parts of their worldview into my own. So for instance, I adopted the Hindu and Buddhist belief in reincarnation.

However, when it came to Christianity, I had an openly antagonistic view. I hated Christianity and consequently, all of my reading regarding Christianity tended to be critiques, criticisms, and reinterpretations. So for instance, I gobbled up books like Hone's "Lost Books of the Bible" and "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." I was totally uninterested in reading books that supported orthodox Christianity and was not open to arguments for it.

After my conversion in 1993, I still read some of the books highly critical of Christianity, initialy at least because friends and some family members were desperately trying to get me to "go back" so for instance, I was given a copy of Karen Armstrong's "A History of God" as soon as it came out. I have continued to read "anti-Christian" books simply because of the need to be able to respond intelligently to them. So, while I have not read Bart Ehrman's newest book, I seriously doubt it will have much that he hasn't already put into other works like Lost Scriptures and Lost Christianities which I am familiar with.

So, for me at least, the question of Christianity doesn't really have much to do with my marital status, although I can tell you that I am still married today because of the effects of my conversion on the way I live my life (since my marriage began there have been multiple opportunities to begin affairs, that I would have succumbed to otherwise, etc.) It has to do with a conviction that the Christian faith is true, which has been corroborated by my experience and strengthened by what I have read. Ultimately, its a question of heart change - regeneration as the Bible calls it.

And yeah, I'd read the Gnostic Gospels by Pagels prior to becoming a Christian.

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline midnight Target

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Misquoting Jesus
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2006, 02:26:54 PM »
I'd like to hear about John 8:7 from your point of view Seagoon. Have you seen the evidence that suggests it was added much later and is not in the original Greek texts?

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
 
8:2  And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
 
8:3  And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
 
8:4  They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
 
8:5  Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
 
8:6  This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
 
8:7  So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
 
8:8  And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
 
8:9  And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
 


Isn't it possible that a later scribe added this story as fact just because it teaches so well?