Author Topic: How accurate is FLAK (Read 3066 times)

the Lazy ace · « **on:** March 18, 2006, 05:10:28 PM »

wen ever i c a article bout B17s over Europe or watever many get Hit by flak, crash, and burn. although ive only played 4 bout 8 months ive lost only 3 planes. whitch makes me wonder, "is flak in the game as accurate as it should b."

E25280 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 18, 2006, 05:44:46 PM »

Interesting question, and honestly I do not know the answer.

However, in the MA you have, what, maybe 6 puffy acks that can fire at your box of 3 bombers. IRL there were at times HUNDREDS of guns firing at HUNDREDS of bombers that were tightly packed.

So, if you miss by an average of 100 yards IRL, you still hit SOMEONE. In AH, it just looks like a bad shot.

Lusche · « **Reply #2 on:** March 18, 2006, 06:02:15 PM »

I think E25280 has given the right answer. Single (or few) heavy acks firing at single planes will rarely have success. At one point in 1944, the Luftwaffe estimated that for every heavy bomber shot down by Flak approximately 4000 rounds were fired. You´ll have to fly around a very long time in the MA to give our six acks the opportunity to fire that much at you ;-)
Fly around with hundred buffs over strat targets defended by hundreds of guns, and you may see a bomber falling out of the sky every few minutes...

SuperDud · « **Reply #3 on:** March 18, 2006, 07:02:45 PM »

On top of that, HTC has to blalance in the fun factor with realism. How fun would it be to climb to 15-20k in bombers only to be blown to peices over and over.

the Lazy ace · « **Reply #4 on:** March 18, 2006, 10:56:54 PM »

but still, in the worst american bomber raid, we lost 69 bombers due to flak and interceptores that doenst seem so significant out of like a 1000 bomber formation

Kurt · « **Reply #5 on:** March 18, 2006, 11:06:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by the Lazy ace
but still, in the worst american bomber raid, we lost 69 bombers due to flak and interceptores that doenst seem so significant out of like a 1000 bomber formation

I don't know where you got that number, but it seems incorrect. The numbers I remember say that it wasn't unusual to lose 1/3rd of the bombers or more on those major raids.

And I know with certaintly that more bombers were brought down by Flack than by enemy fighters. by the time we were flying deep into Germany the LW was hard up for gasoline and good pilots. Few were able to get to the bombers when they were up high and the P51 escorts were able to keep them pretty busy. Flak was the main threat to the bombers at that point in the war.

Oh, wait a minute, you're that same guy who was asking about Polesti in the other forum...

Sir, there were only about 136 bombers in the polesti raid... A loss of 69 is about half of the total flight, and that is right in line with the kind of losses that were seen during other flights..

Secondarily that was a low level attack and Flak wasn't as much of a factor as it would have been in the raids over Germany.

Wolfala · « **Reply #6 on:** March 19, 2006, 03:54:48 AM »

69 bombers was still 690 crew.

Furball · « **Reply #7 on:** March 19, 2006, 04:20:18 AM »

in AH the flak is reversed, i absolutely despise AI auto ack.

i say reversed because it is LETHAL against fighters. you can be doing 400mph and it will hit and kill you. You can be climbing away from your base that an enemy cv is attacking, go above 3k, WHACK... dead. Turnfighting, dead... I lose 2 or 3 planes a month to AI puffy ack it seems.

on the other hand, AI puffy ack seems to never do anything to bombers. i have not been killed, or seen anyone be killed in a bomber formation by AI puffy ack. which is just not historical and downright ridiculous. AI auto ack is supposed to be there to defend a target in absence of human players isnt it? what is going to do more damage to a target, a lone fighter? or a formation of bombers?

this is the one part of AH that i hate, and i wish that it was changed.

ChopSaw · « **Reply #8 on:** March 20, 2006, 12:42:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furball
in AH the flak is reversed, i absolutely despise AI auto ack.

i say reversed because it is LETHAL against fighters. you can be doing 400mph and it will hit and kill you. You can be climbing away from your base that an enemy cv is attacking, go above 3k, WHACK... dead. Turnfighting, dead... I lose 2 or 3 planes a month to AI puffy ack it seems.

on the other hand, AI puffy ack seems to never do anything to bombers. i have not been killed, or seen anyone be killed in a bomber formation by AI puffy ack. which is just not historical and downright ridiculous. AI auto ack is supposed to be there to defend a target in absence of human players isnt it? what is going to do more damage to a target, a lone fighter? or a formation of bombers?

this is the one part of AH that i hate, and i wish that it was changed.

Well as you probably know by now, I fly bombers a lot. I lose bombers to AI puffy ack occasionally and am damaged more often than that. My worst run was over a factory when I lost two of my bombers to the stuff and this was at 21K.

I've noted that puffy ack over cv's is worse for your health than over factories. The player controlled 5" guns make it so. Might be the reason for your experience.

Furball · « **Reply #9 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:00:59 PM »

i did a little experiment on sunday.

i upped a single lanc, with the intention to see how long a bomber would last, set a headwind and hovered over a CV at 9k to see how long it would take puffy ack to kill me.

after 25 - 30 mins i augered out of sheer boredom with no damage.

dedalos · « **Reply #10 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:09:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Furball
i did a little experiment on sunday.

i upped a single lanc, with the intention to see how long a bomber would last, set a headwind and hovered over a CV at 9k to see how long it would take puffy ack to kill me.

after 25 - 30 mins i augered out of sheer boredom with no damage.

Try attacking enemy buffs over your CV. Your own puffy ack will PWN you before it does enything to them

Furball · « **Reply #11 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:13:20 PM »

i've had that.

attacking b17's who are in bombsight unawares that i am 400 behind in chog, nail one, puffy ack shooting

down i go "you have crashed". FRIENDLY puffy ack took my wing off.

have i told you lately that i hate AI ack?

Mister Fork · « **Reply #12 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:46:27 PM »

Historically, it would take anywhere from 6000-10000 AAA shells to take down a single aircraft flying level - straight - and at the same speed. (references available: pm if you'd like them)

To bomber crews, it was hell. When you had several hundred flak guns putting 10-50 shells in the air every minute, 10000 flak explosions takes just two minutes. Not a nice place to be.

In AH, the AAA is questionable because I don't know of the mechanism of how it works, only Pyro or Hitech can answer that question. The laser AAA turrets however are strong in order to address a gameplay issue of vulching. CV AAA is again very deadly for fighters.

In the AvA arena, we turn down the AAA to .25: it actually feel spooky. The AAA is a nuisance, and can damage your aircraft, but not rip a wing off with just one hit. You have a better chance of being wounded by AAA than it destroying your aircraft - which is historic. Most bombers and fighters were rarely knocked out by AAA - although a lot of crews were wounded. A lucky strike would be required to take an aircraft down - or unlucky for the bombers. Which is why a lot of them were very supersticious during the war. The freaky and random nature of AAA can rattle the best of men.

ChopSaw · « **Reply #13 on:** March 20, 2006, 01:59:47 PM »

It is randomized. Sometimes I'm getting hit so much by puffy act over a factory, it's like somebody was directing the fire. Most times, though, it's just pretty sky decoration.

Furball · « **Reply #14 on:** March 20, 2006, 02:20:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mister Fork
In AH, the AAA is questionable because I don't know of the mechanism of how it works, only Pyro or Hitech can answer that question. The laser AAA turrets however are strong in order to address a gameplay issue of vulching. CV AAA is again very deadly for fighters.

i can answer that.

picture an imaginary box around your aircraft. in this imaginary box the puffy ack will randomly fire into. the faster you go, the bigger this box gets so there is less chance of getting hit.

the slower you go, the smaller this box gets so the more chance you have of getting hit.

you maneuver = bigger box

level = smaller box

So, basically, flying around puffy ack is just a randomly generated time bomb of getting hit.

i have asked HT before and this is how i know, i was curious as to how flak always boxes itself round a turning target, rather than shoot where the target would have been, the box is constant.

I would much prefer if they put in a time variable so that maneuvering targets would be much less affected by puffy ack. (i.e. ack shoots where the target was headed 3 seconds ago etc.) but i dont know how hard this would be to model.