Author Topic: Islam in Afganisan is alive and well  (Read 3190 times)

Offline lazs2

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2006, 08:21:11 AM »
did I get this right?  it takes four days of restreraunt hopping in the middle east to understand that there is no way that any form of democracy can exist there?

That sounds very familiar... sorta like old imperial england used to be.

lazs

Offline VOR

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2006, 08:42:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
But my view is at least supported by the fact that I have actually been to the Middle East


I don't think you believe in the validity of your statement any more than I do. You're just a mean-spirited man suffering the rest of us with your superiority complex.

My Islam experience has been one of extremes: either a suffocating hospitality and warm welcomes or a murderous, homicidal hatred burning behind wild eyes. I have very rarely seen anything in between.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2006, 09:01:18 AM »
i think some of you are assuming that all Muslims are hard liners that pray 5 times a day and want to kill infidels.

i have a muslim friend that drinks alcohol and eats pork, when I said "but your a muslim", he said "i'm not THAT kind of muslim.

so just as there are christians and then there are CHRISTIANS, there are muslims and MUSLIMS.

the media wants to show us the bad not the good, blood sells.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2006, 09:06:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Well pardon me for having an alternative point of view - I realise how unacceptable that is in certain circles. But my view is at least supported by the fact that I have actually been to the Middle East, if only briefly, and seen what goes on. Hence, I have seen islam in action. Indeed, in the countries I visited it's hard to miss. So... have yourself a Turkish coffee, and a smoke from one of those bong things (tried it once, but smoking's not my thing!) and you can pretend to be in the Arab world!


Don`t know what your trip to sandland has to do with SG`s post, but OooooK.
Don`t smoke a bong and don`t drink Turkish coffee. Juan Valdez is my supplier. :)
Would never pretend to be in the Arab world. I prefer the good ole U. S. of A. I certainly wouldn`t be stupid enough to go there at this time or any other time if I didn`t have to.
BTW....... Boat. Missed it again.

I may also have coined a new phrase. INSTAspert. :rofl
« Last Edit: March 23, 2006, 10:17:37 AM by Jackal1 »
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline john9001

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2006, 09:14:48 AM »
in reference to the original post, the afgan that changed from muslim to christian, he will not be killed, they have decided ( due to international protests) that he is "incompetent to stand trial".

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2006, 10:18:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Aw Toad.  Beetle's just a joshin' ya.  He's too intelligent to brag about having special knowledge of the middle east just because he spent four whole entire days there.  You ARE joshin' aren't ya Beet?
LOL! Obviously at 4 days, it was a short trip - but it's still 4 days more than most people on this board have spent in the Middle East and yet still regale us with their "knowledge". Some things become apparent as soon as one arrives at a destination. In the case of Qatar, I'd say it was things like the way their religion is inextricably intertwined with their lives - the call to prayer going up at around 4:30am every morning (The sound of my air conditioner drowned it out on all but the last morning) and they take it very seriously. Instantly visible is the orderly nature of their society. In the west, we have become accustomed to teenagers rampaging in city centres. In Britain, the results of the binge drinking culture can be seen on the pavements of main streets every Saturday morning. Go into the newsagent's shop, and glossy magazines with lurid pictures of half naked ladies and thinly veiled captions about their exploits will stare down at you from the top shelf. It's all so... in-yer-face. There is alcohol related crime, and there is drug related crime - particularly theft. There is violence, homicide, you name it. We've become so inured to the "whoop-whoop" of police sirens in our city centres that we don't even notice it any more. But, as for Qatar...

...it is clear after the briefest of visits to the region that NONE of these unwelcome problems exists. It is a polite, ordered society. People treat others with respect, and there is an unwritten code of conduct as to how people conduct themselves in public. Theft is pretty much unheard of. It is perfectly safe to walk the streets at night. No-one gets shot. You won't hear any police sirens. This much I was able to discern in two days, never mind four.

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2006, 11:19:19 AM »
But we also don't get our heads chopped off with a butter knife should we choose to follow a non state-sponsored religion.  

I guess it boils down to what you believe after all.  

If you believe that there ARE universal "human rights", and that the right to religious freedom is one, then you are on the Western side.  

If you believe that killing a Christian because his parents were Muslim is alright because "that is how it is done there" then you are not.  

I wouldn't even consider myself a religious person... but I believe that people have the right to be.  If someone wants to be a Catholic, then a Protestant, then a Muslim, then a Hindu, then a Buddhist, then an atheist, then a Scientologist, then an animist.. then he should have the right to do that.  He shouldn't have to worry about Muslim or Buddhist or Catholic death squads coming from him for apostasy.

Offline VOR

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2006, 11:26:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
...it is clear after the briefest of visits to the region that NONE of these unwelcome problems exists. It is a polite, ordered society.


Either they're just better people than we are or they have a different way of handling problems than we do. Human nature being what it is, I can only guess they've discovered some form of crime deterrent.

I can only imagine what it might be.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2006, 11:29:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VOR
I can only guess they've discovered some form of crime deterrent.

I can only imagine what it might be.
If you're thinking of beheading or amputations, nope - not in Qatar. You're thinking of Saudi Arabia, which is next door. That's an entirely different society, and you wouldn't want to go there and neither would I. Besides, you have to be sponsored to go there, and there is no tourism, no cinemas. no theatres...

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2006, 11:34:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SOB
Beet, I don't know if you're being sarcastic or you just haven't been reading, but I think Seagoon's position is that Islam is wrong/evil in the same vein as fascism or totalitarianism and it needs to be stamped out.
Hmmmm... I've been thinking about this all day, and have been trying to reconcile it against this:
Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.-First Amendment to the US Constitution

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2006, 03:34:07 PM »
Quote
If you're thinking of beheading or amputations, nope - not in Qatar. You're thinking of Saudi Arabia, which is next door. That's an entirely different society, and you wouldn't want to go there and neither would I. Besides, you have to be sponsored to go there, and there is no tourism, no cinemas. no theatres...


I bet that behind closed doors, some of the most decadent and depraved booze parties, banquets, drug extravaganzas, and sexual orgies takes place in Saudi Arabia, and probably much of it right in downtown Ridyah.  The strict Islam is for the people, not the rulers, and for show by the government.

One thing about the Saudis though, they have the good common sense to ban women from driving automobiles and voting  - you can't take that away from them ;)
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2006, 05:23:00 PM »
Well Beetle, having never been to Qatar myself, I can only say my impressions of that society are based on descriptions relayed to me by pals of mine who spent some time there while serving in the military.  There descriptions of a polite and orderly society basically mirror yours.

As you may remember, I spent four weeks in Egypt and two in Israel in the summer of 1992 studying at the American University in Cairo and the Hebrew University in Jerusalem.  Both countries had what appeared to be orderly societies, at least on the surface;  yet there was an undercurrent of resentment and hostility in both.

The reasons for this resentment are almost too numerous to mention;  however, only a few should be necessary to give you the gist of the problem.

Egyptians resent the fact that their country is unfavorably compared to Israel in regards to Israel's apparent success in "making the desert bloom."  "Give us as much financial aid as you give the Israelis," they told us, and we can do the same thing.

Also, they don't really care all that much for European tourists who visit their country and exhibit an apparent contempt for their culture.  For instance, since the beautiful beaches of Egypt's Mediterranean coast are closed to nudity, some Europeans refuse to acknowledge the fact that the cultural mores of their host country should be respected, and parade around topless or nearly nude at the public hotels and resorts.

At the sound and light show at the Pyramids one night I witnessed a member of the "repressed Muslim society" force a European woman and her two young children out of some seats near the front of the platform on which we were sitting.  In all fairness, I'm not certain he was an Egyptian.  This jerk must have weighed 350 pounds.  His own wife tried to call him down, yelling "Hakeem!  Hakeem!"  He responded, "No I make scene!  You are European!  You will move"

There were literally hundreds of empty seats in the same area he and his family could have sat in...but he wanted to prove a point.  The woman, by the way, was married to an Egyptian.  Thoughts of bouncing my coke bottle off of his pate were nixed by my partner, who said "Hey...it's his country.  No good could come of it."

Most Egyptians I studied with, be they student or instructor, were polite and mannerly.  Nevertheless, occasionally we were yelled at on the streets.  It didn't happen often, but it did happen more than once or twice.  Sometimes by men, sometimes by women.

By the way, the most common type of crime one was prone to fall prey to was having one's pocket picked.  However, as a non-Muslim foreigner, I can say I wouldn't feel safe walking through the darker streets of Cairo late at night.

As to the Israelis, their streets were orderly, in that they had little of the type of crime so prevalent in U.S. cities.  Political violence was another matter.  You could see evidence of it everywhere in the country:  from the ubiquitous armed guards and soldiers and teachers everywhere, to kibbutzes surrounded by barmed wire and fences and dug in tanks, to bullet-riddled public buildings.

Palestinian hostility was evident in conversations on the street, although the intifada was taking a time-out while we were there.

At that time, there was a fair amount of resentment by the Israelis toward President Bush I, for he was placing pressure on them to enter into negotiations with the PLO.  This was the summer that Clinton tossed his hat into the ring to run for President.  Bush began the process of leading the two warring factions of Israel and Palestine together;  a process which Clinton brought to completion at Helsinki.

Anyway, there was quite a bit of political graffiti visible in Israel's public "facilities" at that time;  none of it complimentary and some of it pornographic.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2006, 08:15:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Hmmmm... I've been thinking about this all day, and have been trying to reconcile it against this:

Fortunately, it doesn't reconcile.
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Sparks

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Islam in Afganisan is alive and well
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2006, 09:13:20 PM »
Well , being a humanist, much as I disagree with Seagoons Christain Evangelism I have to agree with what he says about Islam.  I recently spent some time in a Middle Eastern country and my co-worker was a Palastinian born Jordanian who has lived in the USA for most of his life but is a devout Muslim.

I was amazed and somewhat dumbstruck.

After raising the issue of the cartoon publication we talked at length and over several days about the conflict in the region we were in. It was a very open and wide ranging discussion where we challenged each others views. Several points came out for me.

The first, and most alarming thing, that arose for me was for that for this man - a degree educated engineer who has lived in the USA most of his life - his love of the prophet was greater than the love for his family (his own words). He absolutely refused to accept that ANYONE has the right to disrespect the laws surrounding images etc of the prophet.

Second was that no law was above the Quran.  He challenged that the fundementalists are not following the Quran but admitted that if civil law was in contradiction to the Quran he would obey the Quran - again remember that this is a man who has benefitted from the prosperity of a free country for most of his life.

Third was his knowledge of his religion and its history and how he kept alive the rifts between the sects - how the Shia and Sunnis parted and why they hated each other even after 500 years.[/b] - he was Sunni btw.

Forth and most important for this discussion - and in agreement with Seagoon - for a Muslim there is no difference between politics and religion. Because there is no law higher than the Quran there can logically be no political system better than the Quran. There can be elected officials who would run the administration of civil bodies on a day to day basis but NOT OUTSIDE THE RULE OF THE QURAN Democracy only extends to who is elected to oversee the implementation of Islamic law.

In reply to his assertion that the he loved the prophet more than his family I countered that I loved my freedom and in particular my freedom of speech more than my family - that family members had died in previous conflicts to protect that freedom.  He said he couldn't understand it but could respect it - the basic problem is these views are diametrically opposed.

My problem with Islam is that it is a one way street - you can only enter - and in that respect it is a growing sucking vortex and the closer to the core you go the harder you are held.

Expat - you may find it all hunky-dory over there but I have worked with many many contractors who have done middle east stints and for every 1 who says it is all fine I find 10 who dislike it but do it for the money. My suspicion is you haven't had to deal with the dark side of them yet. As a western contractor you may be treated with politeness but I would wager when the chips are down you are just another infidel foreigner.

Beet - how on earth can you judge Middle east Islam on Qatar - probably the most liberal westernised of the states - get real !!!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2006, 09:20:02 PM »
I'm dreadfully sorry Sparks old chap...but until YOU take a three day vacation in Qatar you can't REALLY be taken seriously as an authority on the Middle East and the religion of Islam.

Do book a vacation and get back to us afterwards?

Thanks!




















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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!