Christians and end times- Are they here?

[Chairboy]

Howdy!

I was listening to the radio today, and they were interviewing the author of a book called "American Theocracy : The Peril and Politics of Radical Religion, Oil, and Borrowed Money in the 21stCentury" that suggested a connection between our fighting in the middle east, money lending, and religious influence.

It's written by Kevin Phillips, a republican strategist for the Nixon campaign: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Phillips_%28political_commentator%29

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067003486X/sr=8-1/qid=1143054966/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2527453-3899344?%5Fencoding=UTF8

His basic idea was (let me see if I can get this right) that in the United States (and elsewhere), there is a growing belief that the end times are approaching, that armageddon (the biblical one, not the hamster one) is around the corner, and that this is both influencing our foreign affairs and our economy.  

Foreign affairs
Basically, Baghdad is the site of the ancient city of Babylon, and part of the prophecies say that the anti-christ will attempt to rebuild Babylon as part of the race to the finish.  The author suggests that many people believe that Saddam Hussein, by virtue of his rebuilding of Baghdad over the past 30 years, has essentially identified himself as the antichrist by his actions.  Also, as supporting data, the author noted that since the end of the cold war, the focus of many influential christians has been to identify Islam as a direct threat and as evil.

Economics
He also says that this has shaped how many people in the US work with money.  He uses the Republican party as an example and says that historically, the republicans were about reducing debt, but that the past 20 or so years has seen a ballooning national debt because after all, "if the apocalypse is around the corner, why worry about debt right now?"  That might be an oversimplification, but I think that was the gist of it.  He says that the GOP in the US has recently been taken over by religious extremists, and that the Democratic party is full of cowards that are unwilling/unable to call the Republicans on it.

I'm not a religious fella, but I found the discussion fascinating.  Personally, I _do_ think the republican party has taken a distinctly theological turn, but I think he might be reaching with some of his conclusions.  I was wondering if anyone here was more familiar with his book and/or had some alternate thoughts on the subject?

Also, DO the religious types think that a literal battle between heaven and hell will take place in our lifetimes?  While I don't share many of y'alls religious beliefs, I do respect that you have them and that it's part of the human experience, and I'm always looking to learn more about how people tick.

Thanks!

EDIT: Fixed book title, added amazon link

[Yeager]

If a person thinks a thing often and hard enough, that person can convince themself just about anything.  Reality is that we -as individuals die, this planet will die, the sun will die, the solar system will die, the galaxy will die, the universe will die.

My point is: Who gives a crap about armaggeddon, One way or another, in some form or another, we each have our own little armageddon eventually.  Sooo, just be happy you are even alive, its a miracle each and every day!

And oh yeah, find love and give love away freely.

[Hangtime]

Saw this guy on Stewarts show.. found it intersting.. but kinda ludicrous. Regardless some other points were well made, and I agree that Christian Theology as of late seems to have focused on Islam as the 'bad guys'.

Do Cristians always need 'bad guys' as motivators for their message? Used to be it was 'godless commies'. The New bad guys are 'Jihadists'.

Could be they are correct.. cause despite my 'unbeliver' status regarding either sides dogma, I do see the Islamic Threat as valid.

As far as 'spend, spend spend, the end is coming anyway', this will REALLY tick me off if it's true cause for the first time in my life I'm utterly debt free and refuse to 'spend' beyond my immediate means to stay that way. I could hugely improve my lifestsyle by doing what everybody else seems to do as a matter of course these days... wouldn't that be a heluva karma kickback, wouldn't it?

[Gunslinger]

My personal faith is questionable at times but I do consider myself a beleiver.  

My parents are what you would call "born again" die hard christians.  They go to all sorts of websites like prophacywatch and listen to online sermons about end times.

They've basically got me re-interested in it so to speak.  Recently I read the entire series "left behind" (this is the point where seagoon rolls his eyes because IIRC he loathes this book series)

Anywho, I read the series from a prespective of curiosity.  I've also read a couple of other books reguarding revelations that describe the several different theorys reguarding "end times"

Personally I find myself fascinated by it all.  There can be alot of comparisons made to current events and the "run up" to the BEGINNING of end times.  The war we are fighting now, the struggle of Israel, and the "globalization" of economics being some.  But, these could just all be coincidences.  I don't think for one second that Sadam is the anti-christ, he doesn't fit the biblical description.

I think the guy's GOP theories are kinda interesting as well but sketchy at best.  I don't beleive for one second that the ENTIRE GOP is controlled by religious zelots.

[Tarmac]

Originally posted by Chairboy
armageddon (the biblical one, not the hamster one) is around the corner

 
Lol.   Armageddon!

Originally posted by Chairboy

Basically, Baghdad is the site of the ancient city of Babylon, and part of the prophecies say that the anti-christ will attempt to rebuild Babylon as part of the race to the finish.  The author suggests that many people believe that Saddam Hussein, by virtue of his rebuilding of Baghdad over the past 30 years, has essentially identified himself as the antichrist by his actions.  Also, as supporting data, the author noted that since the end of the cold war, the focus of many influential christians has been to identify Islam as a direct threat and as evil.

Uhh, aren't we trying to rebuild Baghdad too?

[Seagoon]

There are some threads I should probably just stay away from, this definitely has all the earmarks of one of them.

Just a few points...

First, having lived in the D.C. metro for several years and having worked as a Sys Admin for a G.O.P. thinktank for a while, I can tell you that the idea that fundamentalist Christians control the Republican party is beyond silly. I was the only person in the entire building who wasn't either a lapsed Catholic, an agnostic, or either a nominal or mainline protestant or Jew. Oh, there were two Mormons who used to argue theology with me on occasion, but their social schedule exactly mirrored that of the other young staffers. I was certainly the only "fundamentalist" on the staff, and was tolerated as a curious throwback because I made the network run and answered their problem calls.

The Republicans in D.C. are largely pragmatists, and while they may rely on the evangelical Christian vote in several states, they rarely have time for them once they are in power. Most of the "bright young things" looking to get ahead in the party that I met in D.C. were about as practically irreligious as their Democratic counterparts, but paid lipservice to a few aspects of social conservatism. There were exceptions to that rule, but they were just that, exceptions.

The vast majority of Repubs in D.C. didn't graduate from Bob Jones, they came from places like Brown, and Yale, and Harvard, Georgetown, USC, and the University of Indiana, and many of them, if they entered those institutions as professing Christians, had parted ways with their faith during their school career. As a result, they generally believed one had to keep the husk of Christian ethics in place, but if you asked them if they believed in Creationism, the Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, and the Return of Christ, they'd say of course not. Those kind of things had been relegated to the same kind of domain occupied by Aesop's Fables - Helpful tales designed to teach a lesson, but without having to believe in talking foxes.

The myth of an Evangelical G.O.P. is useful, especially when it comes to alarming gullible liberals and mobilizing the more reactionary portions of the Democratic party, but ultimately its no more accurate than thinking that the Democrats are totally controlled by committed Communists.

- SEAGOON

[phookat]

I think the whole concept of "end times" is a little outdated.  This concept was conceived of at a time when there was basically "the heaven and the earth", there was of course no idea of an earth in the middle of a huge void we call the universe.  Now we know that even if we managed to turn the earth into a collection of asteroids, the universe still remains unchanged.

Plus there's the date issue.  Weren't the end times supposed to happen a long time ago?  IIRC it was supposed to be right around the corner, even in biblical times.  Then there was the 1000 AD mark, where nothing happened...  So I think this guy is basically nuts.

[Shifty]

As a Christian, I really don't worry about when the end times arrive. It's not my call .  When it happens, it happens. It's not like there is anything you can do about it. If you believe in Christ , whats there to fear in his second coming?

I know some people like to dwell on it and see signs in every newscast, and constantly predict the end times are here. Why they do this I have no idea.  To each their own I guess.

[Goomba]

Seems to me that doomsayers have been crying 'Armageddon' since the concept was first envisioned...thousands of years, at least.  Every generation sees the exclamation that things are tougher, weirder, more chaotic than ever before, and this must mean the end of the world is nigh.  Hell, every time there's a natural disaster, my own Mother decides it's a sign of cosmic realignment and a harbinger of great turbulence to come.

In our own lives, we've all seen the reports of whole groups of people killing themselves in anticipation of the end...the coming of the millenium, the coming of the comet, etc...Just a week or three ago, I read an article about a problem the government of an African nation (Ethiopia, Nigeria?) was having...seems everytime there's a solar eclipse, the entire nation goes nuts and there are riots in the city streets, as the people fear they are cursed, or that it's the end of the world...again.  How's about all the folks who sold off their lives to build survival compounds where they could outlast the imminent collapse that was to be attendant on the coming of the Millenium?

It appears to me that it doesn't take much to get people ready to believe that the end is coming.  Perhaps it's just a need to feel special...wouldn't being alive at the (start reverb) End of The World (end reverb) make one special?

Me...I'm not concerned.  I think the end will come when we inflict it upon ourselves, not when it's scheduled.  In the meantime, I don't have time to waste hunting for justification and meaning to my life by digging around for vague 'prophecies' wrapped in pseudo-academic dissertation.  Don't misunderstand, though...I'm only dismissive of those who foment this dreck on otherwise decent, but gullible, people.  I believe this stuff has only one purpose...to manipulate folks.

I'm quite certain this three-ring circus will still be here in the morning.

[storch]

wow!!! are you going to be cruising the blvd. with a home made placard??

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Hangtime


Do Cristians always need 'bad guys' as motivators for their message? Used to be it was 'godless commies'. The New bad guys are 'Jihadists'.

Lets see what other reasons did Americans (most of whom are christians) have to think that the Soviet Commies were bad guys during the cold war and now that the jihadists are bad guys today??  Hmmm...

[Scatcat]

At this rate, will armaggeddon be here before TOD?

[Rolex]

It's ironic that you brought this up, Chairboy. I've gone through a fundamental change in the past 6 months, a change in thinking about the big picture from (too) much reading. The picture beyond the immediate political, financial, religeous and tribal thinking that is distracting us from the big picture of our collective future.

That change makes me say that, as interesting as that theory may sound, it is insignificant and yet another distraction by people who could use their intellect and reasoning to publish and promote something that results in action, not just more talk.

We have evolved a sub-species of continual talkers, talkers who blather on about petty little things that do not matter and have no impact in solving the real Armageddon we are facing. An Armageddon that is but a few short generations away. We thought our Armageddon would be farther in the future, but we have learned in the past few years that we're moving toward it at twice the speed that we thought.

One of the most significant understandings in the history of man (the understanding that we are just a decade away from sealing the fate of our extinction) began the day after the September 11th WTC event. It was not the event itself, it was a reaction by a scientist to an observation made the day after the event. It would be an historic observation and collection of data that started the ball rolling toward a staggering, bolt upright in your chair, sobering timeline for our Armageddon.

We can talk about hope, we can talk about our resilience and innovation, we can talk about politics, we can talk about terror, we can talk about religion, we can talk about nations, we can talk about conspiracy, we can talk about oil, we can talk and talk and talk until we're all talked out about these things that don't really matter, in the big picture, that is.

[culero]

Ummm...WTF, over?

culero

[Hangtime]

Originally posted by Rolex
One of the most significant understandings in the history of man (the understanding that we are just a decade away from sealing the fate of our extinction) began the day after the September 11th WTC event. It was not the event itself, it was a reaction by a scientist to an observation made the day after the event. It would be an historic observation and collection of data that started the ball rolling toward a staggering, bolt upright in your chair, sobering timeline for our Armageddon.

You have my complete attention.

.... but I grasp only smoke; not substance. Is it possible your being a bit obtuse or am I just getting slower on the uptake?