Author Topic: Spit16 (Read 4621 times)

indy007 · « **Reply #60 on:** April 14, 2006, 11:05:11 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Wouldn't worry Indy, gear down and engine off is about as gamey as you can get, and surprised Urchin did it.

I defy anyone to show me ONE combat report of a pilot killing his engine and/or dropping his gear during a fight.

Its a technique (I use that word loosely) that needs some kind of limit or stop put on it.

Game is rapidly developing into a "how much can I exploit flaws in the FM".

Well he had no throttle, and that was the only way to cut power, so gamey or not, I would be doing it too in his shoes. To me it looked like he'd throttled back anyways, I didn't know until after the second fight.

Gaming has always been about the numbers. On a MUD I played for years, I could do an 8man run solo. On WoW, 40man raids can be done by 8. In IL2 people know at exactly with mph flaps will jam at and can pull some crazy high g turns because of it. In Battletech you can field Gausszilla (and they will die). In here it's taking a plane to the edge of the envelope you wouldn't ever do in combat. Not the supposed impossible (or as I like, improbable), just stuff that would get you killed in RL. I dunno.. just doesn't seem nearly as uber as real exploits to me =P Either way, it looked cool even when he was shooting me down, and I had alot of fun.

Kev367th · « **Reply #61 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:10:31 PM »

Thing is easily fixed -

No turning off engine when off the ground. (or at least a chance it won't restart)

Pitch / roll limits on gear deployment.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #62 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:17:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Thing is easily fixed -

No turning off engine when off the ground. (or at least a chance it won't restart)

Pitch / roll limits on gear deployment.

Gear out on the F4U is a sign the dive flaps or being used. I've seen film of F4Us dropping ord, in Korea I think, where the gear was down on the run in.

Widewing · « **Reply #63 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:49:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by indy007
And people are telling me you can't get USN aircraft to hover? Ask Urchin. He beat me up, took my lunch money, and did it without a throttle.

This past Wednesday evening, we had a pretty capable group in the TA. They included Murdr, BatfinkV, Pooface, Infensus (Bighorn's latest shade), TC and later, Creton.

We were playing around with F4Us. P-38s and Spits.

I worked my F4U-1D onto the tail of Pooface's Spit V and try as he might, there was no getting that Corsair off.. For several minutes we flew just about every maneuver one can imagine and the F4U was able to stay glued to the Spitfire, right up to and including augering immediately after Pooface. The F4U IS that good. Later we both flew Dhogs had a ball taking turns hosing each other. It is simply insane what you can do with any F4U. However, the F4U-4 can do the same stuff, but do it going straight up....

Creton and I flew the F4U-1D vs the F6F-5. It's a very even fight until you both get dead slow with full flaps hanging out... At this point the F4U owns the F6F. No, it's not historical, but it is how it works out in the game. Once slow, I could not work the F6F into a firing solution on Creton's Hog, and he eventually gained the advantage.

Stall fighting P-38G vs F4U-1D... I had a P-38G, Infensus the Dhog... Slight edge to the Lightning. If I could have used full flaps, I think the G would have had a bigger advantage. As it was, I generally worked back and forth between two and four notches. However, switch to heavier P-38J and the Dhog wins, consistantly, regardless of which one of us flew the Corsair. This was largely due to current (as of the last update) drag induced instability which hurts the later the P-38s more than the G model because they rely more on deep flaps (when's the fix coming, Pyro?).

Anyone who underestimates the F4U will eventually get burned by someone who knows how to use it. Running into someone like Urchin or someone with his level of ability will be an educational experience not soon forgotten.

As to the SpitXVI... Probably the best E fighter in the game.

My regards,

Widewing

Widewing · « **Reply #64 on:** April 14, 2006, 12:56:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
Gear out on the F4U is a sign the dive flaps or being used. I've seen film of F4Us dropping ord, in Korea I think, where the gear was down on the run in.

Vought engineered the gear specifically to be used as a dive brake. The Dive Brake handle lowered the main gear, but not the tail wheel. F4UDOA can better elaborate on that more than I can.

I do know that the pilot's manual states that maximum gear extension speed is 300 mph IAS, and max retraction speed is 400 mph IAS. The gear also induced a marked pitch down attitude.

It short, it's not gamey to use the F4U's gear as a dive brake, because that's exactly what it was designed for.

My regards,

Widewing

Kev367th · « **Reply #65 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:09:17 PM »

Wouldn't you say there a difference between a 'dive brake' and using it as some kind of 'combat flap'?

Guppy35 · « **Reply #66 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:13:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Wouldn't you say there a difference between a 'dive brake' and using it as some kind of 'combat flap'?

Thats the joy if it being a game with no real loss of life. That's why guys will go full flaps in a furball, or kick out the dive brake as a combat flap.

If it was really life or death I doubt folks would give up the speed, but since it isn't and you get a new plane and life if you die, folks take it that much further. Not sure what you could do to change that or if you'd really want to

Bronk · « **Reply #67 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:22:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Guppy35
Thats the joy if it being a game with no real loss of life. That's why guys will go full flaps in a furball, or kick out the dive brake as a combat flap.

If it was really life or death I doubt folks would give up the speed, but since it isn't and you get a new plane and life if you die, folks take it that much further. Not sure what you could do to change that or if you'd really want to

In ma yup I'd drop gear, but if in a fso or some such only for a last option.

Bronk

Widewing · « **Reply #68 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:27:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Wouldn't you say there a difference between a 'dive brake' and using it as some kind of 'combat flap'?

Well, the F4U had a "Combat" flap setting as well. Nonetheless, if I absolutely, positively must slow down right now... Down go the gear.

Why not take advantage of the capability? Just because few, if any used it in WWII is irrelevant; the capability was there and available if need be.

My regards,

Widewing

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #69 on:** April 14, 2006, 01:33:28 PM »

Wow ... I hadn't tried the F4U since the update ... the -1D is real nice now. Crisp roll rate even at lower speeds, predictable stall, and you can push the plane. The -1 felt pretty unstable, though, by comparison.

I may have to do a tour in the -1D and -1C when I have time again.

Oldman731 · « **Reply #70 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:18:02 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
I defy anyone to show me ONE combat report of a pilot killing his engine and/or dropping his gear during a fight.

I'm out of town now, or I'd type it in.

If you have Caldwell's "JG26," read about Mietusch's (spelling may be bad) (first name was Klaus, I think) final fight. He was the one of the Gruppe's highest scoring pilots, was commander of its 109 contingent. He died in a long fight against a US pilot flying a 51, who had his gear extended when Mietusch tried to force the overshoot. Very AH-like.

You may call Urchin many things, but "gamey" shouldn't be one of them.

- oldman

Urchin · « **Reply #71 on:** April 14, 2006, 11:34:49 PM »

Lol, thanks..?

Actually, if my throttle was working I wouldn't cut engine. Just throttle all the way back, which as far as I know slows you down at the same rate as turning the engine off.

As far as the dropping gear, I only ever do it in the F4U.. it did have the aforementioned "speed brake" (gear doors anyway) so I don't think it is "gamey".

Creton · « **Reply #72 on:** April 18, 2006, 05:06:13 PM »

I was challenged to the DA today by a spit16 driver.His exact words were"I'll beat a DHOG all day long ina spit16".

First fight went like this,I merged at 375mph in the dhog and immediatley went for the pitchback and droped 3 notches fo flaps,I beat him at the top of the merge easily as he wasnt expecting me to try and turn fight him,and hadnt blown his E.At the top I punched some more flaps and pulled it on over the top 200ft before we intersected,he realised my move and tried to counter by going up at an angle,I then rolled out all the flaps and hung on the prop as he fluttered on by my gun sight, ratattatatat tat and spit goes "BOOM!!.

Second fight was a little different ,I knew he would be ready for my hard merge so I came in at my usual 375-400 mph merge,I went for a hard flat turn and he went up over the top ,as I came out of turn I started to climb slightly just as he was comeing over the top and droping on me,I knew he would chop throttle to prevent the over shoot,so I rolled it straight up and went full flaps ,this put me in a vert climb ,doing around 225mph ,as he went under my tail .I pulled a little right rudder to make it fall towards him.He countered by pulling up, thus we started the scissors,I knew that he was haveing trouble staying aloft because of the slow speed ,as we scissored I just kept the flaps out went going up but would start to retract them on the down slope,to help gain a little more E each time we intersected,I then began to pull a little more vertical on each scissors ,but not enough to flop stall the dhog,I believ this is a high yoyo with out the twist at the top,the 16 was unable to continuously pull vertical,even the slightest ,and after 6-7 scissors I had him front of me,ratatatatat tat BOOM!!!

While I am just considered average in dogfighting,my OPPONITE, whom I will not name, is considered by many to be the better fighter,in any plane.
This is merely to point out that the all "UBER" spit16,while being an amazing a/c without a doubt ,is still very beatable by the new and improved dhog.

Later in the day I was challnged by yet another pilot,who was a squadie to the previous one ,and had heard of our fight.He intered the DA believing that the spit 16 was unbeatable and left flying the dhog.

I have, since 2002, primarily flown the 109's and in particular the 109g2.My squadie dared me to fly allied for a whole tour just for fun ,so I picke dthe dhog and this is my first tour to fly it ,I must admit ,it is a very capable a/c and I will probably fly it more.Even after the tour is finished.

Urchin · « **Reply #73 on:** April 18, 2006, 05:11:25 PM »

That is something I'd have to see to believe.

Mind going over to the DA with me? I may not be the best game in town (especially w/o a throttle) but I also think that the Spit 16 should be more than a match for the F4U.

Creton · « **Reply #74 on:** April 18, 2006, 05:26:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
That is something I'd have to see to believe.

Mind going over to the DA with me? I may not be the best game in town (especially w/o a throttle) but I also think that the Spit 16 should be more than a match for the F4U.

I would be glad to go.I'm sure your a better pilot than the one I fought.
Look me up sometime when I'm on.I will be there or the TA tonight with my squadies doing some practice,feel free to drop in.