Author Topic: Spit16 (Read 4592 times)

Glasses · « **Reply #75 on:** April 18, 2006, 09:44:27 PM »

In AH the F4U is a Navy Spitfire.

Urchin · « **Reply #76 on:** April 18, 2006, 11:51:31 PM »

Well I did meet Creton and Widewing in the TA for some Spit 16 vs F4U action.

Here is what I think (still). Given equal pilots, the Spit 16 should win.

I *think* I landed the first "kill shot" in every fight (f4U vs Spit 16). I'm not 100% positive, and it is tough because you have to guess if you would have killed him or not. The one time I missed, Creton would have killed me with his shot.

As far as the fight goes, if you are in the Spit 16 you should use the vertical. I tend to do that in any plane thats got a lot of power and can climb slow, but it works well in the Spit 16.

The F4U seems to be able to pull a flat turn about as good as the Spit 16 (turn radii seem similar, and time around the circle seems similar).

If the F4U gets behind the Spit 16, the Spit will probably die if the F4U is a good shot. If the Spit manages to turn hard enough to turn the fight back into a stalemate, then it can retract flaps and stop turning hard. Let the F4U keep turning hard while you get speed up to ~160, and start doing hi yoyos, and eventually you will be able to come over the top behind the F4U.

Widewing · « **Reply #77 on:** April 19, 2006, 01:42:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
Well I did meet Creton and Widewing in the TA for some Spit 16 vs F4U action.

Here is what I think (still). Given equal pilots, the Spit 16 should win.

Agreed..

The Dhog can turn with the Spit16 (slightly better IMHO). However, at around 110 mph, the Spit can get the nose up and keep it up, whereas the Dhog simply lacks the grunt to follow for very long. Nonetheless, Creton, you or me would own the average Spit16 driver in the MA while flying the Dhog.

What the F4U needs is another 300- 400 hp.... Oh yeah, we have one of those. The F4U-4...

We saw that the F4U-4 can follow the Spit16 through any maneuver it can manage... Now, getting on the Spitfire's six is another matter... But once in its rear hemisphere, the Spit is in trouble. Unlike the Dhog, we saw that the 4hog can follow the Spit16 in the vertical.

Anyway, I've got lots of film and tomorrow I"ll post some snippets. There was some really good flying going on.

You know, I think we both forgot about the F4U-4/La-7 match-up.

My regards,

Widewing

Creton · « **Reply #78 on:** April 19, 2006, 08:45:15 AM »

Great fun, URCHIN.

Great flying,Very nice E management and keeping it going vert.I found that the dhog once slow enough couldnt get the nose up fast enough for the shot.
I think the spit16 has a slight edge on the initial merge but was still very close at the top of the merge.I would like to see someone who is very good in each plane go against each other.Your a higher calibre and more advanced pilot than myself and it's a great learner to go against better sticks,great show of class and cheching egos at the door. You redeemed the spit16 alittle as far as I was concerned.
It is an amazing a/c as I stated earlier.I'll be back on tonight if you'd like to practice some more .

F4UDOA · « **Reply #79 on:** April 19, 2006, 02:08:07 PM »

I have been out of the MA for a while but the last time I stuck my head in I was able to out turn a Spit 16 in a sustained turn to the left in the F4U-1D with full flaps deployed.

I frankly do not know enough about the Spit 16 we have in AH to tell if this is anywhere close to historically accurate.

One thing for sure it seems as if the more experiance the pilot has in the F4U the better it becomes probably more than most A/C in AH because you can do "tricks" in it IE burn E in a horizontal sissors, drop gear at high speed, dive to very high mach numbers without augering and pull sick G's at low speeds if only for an instant as well as deploy Combat type flaps as low speeds to decrease turn radius.

How historic is our F4U and or turning ability with with/without flaps?

The additional drag of full flaps was mostly induced drag (Cdi) or drag from lift at low speeds and helped takeoff ability tremendously increasing climb/acceleration. But when you got to climb speeds of 150MPH the use of full flaps would have added too much drag to assist in climb and would have slowed the airplane hurting climb/acceleration.

So the question is at what speed do flaps begin to hurt performance and that depends on the power curve of the F4U-1 R2800-8W which was optimized for carrier takeoff and waveoff at low speed and full flap.

Here are some test to determine if the F4U has too much lift/power at low speed.

This is some baseline flight envelope data from the F4U-1D NAVAIR/Vought/POH data.

1. The max deployable speed for full flaps in the F4U-1D is 130Knots IAS 132Knots CAS or 152MPH TAS.

2. The stall speed power off of the F4U-1D full flap is 89MPH at 12,061LBS from Vought or 87.5MPH at 12,175LBS from NAVAER. Roughly the same at a full load.

3. The takeoff distance at Mil power 54"full flap is 650FT at 12,000LBS

4. The stall speed power on 23"MAP 2400RPM is 66Knots IAS/ 63Knots CAS or 72.5MPH at 11,300LBS

5. No flaps, power off 2G stall is 110KnotsIAS/CAS or 126MPH at 12,000lbs

FYI, The F4U POH reccomends entering a loops or Immelmans at speeds of 280Knots or better until pilot is experianced. However the Spitfire IX is nearly the same at 260Knots for loops 295Knots for immelmans. The Spit XIV is even higher at 320-350MPH for Loops and 350-400MPH for Immelmans.

IMHO if anything is overdone it is virtical ability and not horizontal turning.

Widewing · « **Reply #80 on:** April 19, 2006, 09:50:23 PM »

I promised some films, so here's two from the F4U-1D vs Spit16 party we held in the TA and one of the F4U-4 clinging to the Spit16 like a lazy relative.

The first film begins with Urchin turning onto my low six after he dueled Creton's 109G-2. As I watched him swing in behind, I realized that the fight was on. The only plane pinged was the Spitfire (looked like minor hits).. I eventually augered pushing the Hog too hard.

The second film was more of a classic merge. We maneuvered into an HO, Urchin fired, I didn't. Some minor pings. Next sequence is the Spitfire getting hosed. Eventually, the Spit16's better vertical performance prevails and I get hosed a couple of times.

The last film shows me flying an F4U-4 following Urchin's Spit16. He and Creton were dueling and I made like his shadow. You will see that the F4U-4 is an awesome airplane, which I have long considered the best prop fighter in the plane set, bar none.

We flew additional fights, and I managed to auger an F4U-4...pushing too hard again.

One great thing about these duels.. Everyone had fun. In most cases, the better airplane prevailed as the pilots were all very evenly matched. There was no whining, complaining or excuses. Just a group of guys having a good time. Urchin doesn't have a throttle yet. So, he flew "on the magneto", forced to toggle the engine to chop power. I don't think it gave him an advantage, and may have been a handicap.

All films are zipped...

Urchin-Widewing1

Urchin-Widewing2

Gull Wing Shadow

My regards,

Widewing

Bronk · « **Reply #81 on:** April 19, 2006, 11:17:21 PM »

Widewing and thanx for posting. Seeing stuff like this gives me something to shoot for. (pun intended)

Bronk

Karnak · « **Reply #82 on:** April 20, 2006, 01:28:36 AM »

I would actually like to have some practice with you guys. I still have my account, but no longer play as fights got too rare for the time investments.

I know I am rusty, and was never on your level, but I'd have fun trying to shake off some of the rust.

My prefered fighter mount is the Spit VIII, though I was trying out the Bf109G-14 at the end.

Urchin · « **Reply #83 on:** April 20, 2006, 11:35:59 PM »

I'd be happy to Karnak, I'll probably be busy this weekend though. I may be able to squeeze in a couple fights.

Saitek is still jerking me around on the stick I bought though. It was supposed to have shipped last Tuesday, the 11th... I called and was informed they were going to ship it out this past Tuesday the 19th, and I should recieve it by Thursday. The girl said something about all the orders getting messed up last week.

Thursday's come and gone, odds are good I won't get it till next week.

Widewing · « **Reply #84 on:** April 20, 2006, 11:45:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
I'd be happy to Karnak, I'll probably be busy this weekend though. I may be able to squeeze in a couple fights.

Saitek is still jerking me around on the stick I bought though. It was supposed to have shipped last Tuesday, the 11th... I called and was informed they were going to ship it out this past Tuesday the 19th, and I should recieve it by Thursday. The girl said something about all the orders getting messed up last week.

Thursday's come and gone, odds are good I won't get it till next week.

If this continues much longer, I have a spare, used X45 stick and throttle boxed up in my garage loft. Everything works, it's just well used. PM me if they jerk you around much longer.

My regards,

Widewing

Karnak · « **Reply #85 on:** April 20, 2006, 11:49:17 PM »

Urchin,

Thanks. Actually next week would be better for me as well. I have a lot of homework from the english class I am taking that I need to get done. Stuff all due next Wednesday.

Widewing · « **Reply #86 on:** April 21, 2006, 12:01:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
I would actually like to have some practice with you guys. I still have my account, but no longer play as fights got too rare for the time investments.

I know I am rusty, and was never on your level, but I'd have fun trying to shake off some of the rust.

My prefered fighter mount is the Spit VIII, though I was trying out the Bf109G-14 at the end.

I'm in the TA three or four nights a week. Creton is a regular lately as is Batfink, and you can usually find Infensus (Bighorn2) in there during the evening. Badboy is the trainer who is usually in the TA during daytime hours and Schatzi helps out during that time of day too.

As for trainers, Murdr, Ghosth and Ren are in the TA almost every evening, joined by Hammer, TC, Silat and Soda.

Any of these guys can help you knock off the rust.

You are always welcome to join us.

My regards,

Widewing

SgtPappy · « **Reply #87 on:** September 08, 2006, 07:44:31 PM »

Hey all.. It's good ol' annoying Paps back toask more questions! Hope you all don't mind. I was reading up about the Spit XVI and one site said that the 16 had wing tanks in adition to the 85 gal. main. IS this true? If it is, does that mean it could fly over 1,180 mi. like the Mk.VIII? Searched everywhere, so far, not many sources talk about the 16's range.

thanks! -cheers-

Squire · « **Reply #88 on:** September 08, 2006, 08:42:35 PM »

Same reason most N1K2s are easy, most are flown by noobs who can only HO and dive at a base to do a 500mph vulch run.

Guppy35 · « **Reply #89 on:** September 08, 2006, 11:29:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Hey all.. It's good ol' annoying Paps back toask more questions! Hope you all don't mind. I was reading up about the Spit XVI and one site said that the 16 had wing tanks in adition to the 85 gal. main. IS this true? If it is, does that mean it could fly over 1,180 mi. like the Mk.VIII? Searched everywhere, so far, not many sources talk about the 16's range.

thanks! -cheers-

Nope. 16 was same as the Spit IX. Like the IX at one point they added a fuselage tank but that was rare and towards the very end of the war

The 16 is the way it should be

VIII had the wing tanks as it was designated for overseas use. XIV had em too.