Author Topic: P 38 is ruined (Read 5239 times)

Charge · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2006, 01:52:45 AM »

Anybody has a picture of how the P38 looks like with flaps fully deployed?

-C+

Guppy35 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2006, 02:16:21 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
Anybody has a picture of how the P38 looks like with flaps fully deployed?

-C+

Early model P38F with flaps out and late model P38L with flaps out.

Captain Virgil Hilts · « **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2006, 08:26:33 AM »

Dan has a picture of EVERYTHING. Except maybe me getting a kill. Some things are too rare to be captured on film. Like Sasquatch. Or SaVaGe getting a kill. Especially SaVaGe getting a kill in a P-38 these days and living long enough to see it.

Charge · « **Reply #18 on:** April 11, 2006, 03:13:52 PM »

Those pics look like the a/c having pitch down attitude with full flaps down. How much pitch up do you think it can take with full throttle?

Flaps max 40 deg down? Add that to theoretical maximum estimate AoA for that wing profile ~16 deg = 56 deg.

I hope I'm in ballpark with that figure. Pretty much deflection anyway.

-C+

bozon · « **Reply #19 on:** April 12, 2006, 06:43:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
Flaps max 40 deg down? Add that to theoretical maximum estimate AoA for that wing profile ~16 deg = 56 deg.

You mean nose elevation over ther horizon, not angle-of-attack.

The entire AoA issue is poorly defined and usually refers to a fixed shape wing. It is just a calibration for the lift/drag coefficient more than anything absolute. Changing the shape of the wing, as in dropping flaps, or slats, or whatever, requires a new definition for the AoA.

Bozon

Widewing · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:10:44 PM »

This evening I spent a few hours dueling with a few of the game's excellent pilots. I flew a P-38G with 50% fuel and was able to fight to a draw (no one could get angles to shoot) against an F4U-1D. This was largely due to the P-38G being able to fight a bit better in the vertical. I didn't use full flaps at all, simply due to the huge drag hit.

However, the P-38J proved to be more of a problem. You can chalk this up to the added weight. Plus, I found that dumping flaps while at 3 gs or better led to an instant snap-roll, and the loss of any advantage gained on the initial reverse.

It did not matter who flew the F4U-1D, it always won against the P-38J. Prior to the last update, that was not often the case. The reason for the change is not only increased drag associated with the flaps, but a general loss of stability. Inasmuch as the P-38s were famous for their gentle stall and benign behavior at the limits, the P-38s are now prone to vicious stall behavior when pushed hard. Thankfully, less so with the P-38G.

F4Us were always remarkable at low speeds, and they still are.

Thanks to Murdr, Infensus (Bighorn), Creton, BatfinkV, Pooface and Brick31 for the great entertainment. Also a big WTG to Simaril, who keeps getting better and better. Folks, some nights the best furballs are actually in the TA.

My regards,

Widewing

Lazerr · « **Reply #21 on:** April 12, 2006, 11:29:26 PM »

Dude AKAK, lots of people before patch used to fly 38 like a spit. Thats in a furball, where your flaps are out 70% of the time.

Its a big deal, and I don't see how I should have to work around a bug.

Charge · « **Reply #22 on:** April 13, 2006, 05:13:19 AM »

"Inasmuch as the P-38s were famous for their gentle stall and benign behavior at the limits, the P-38s are now prone to vicious stall behavior when pushed hard. Thankfully, less so with the P-38G. "

Do you have any internet sources of stall behaviour?

From what I have read the P38 has a gentle stall if stalled wings level which is supported by the flow energizing effect of CR propellors. Never hear or read of its gentle stall if pushed hard. Although never hear or read of any magnificent "departures", either...

Why do you compare it to F4U? It was not its historical adversary.

-C+

Charge · « **Reply #23 on:** April 13, 2006, 05:20:52 AM »

"You mean nose elevation over ther horizon, not angle-of-attack. "

No, I mean the AoA of the wing, despite the changing profile upon flap deployment. If the wing is at 16 deg to airflow and you deploy full 40deg flaps so the flaps are at 56 deg to airflow. Simple as that.

It is a totally different matter if the wingprofile can support flow at 16deg at speeds of flap deloyment.

Just some theoretical blabber to raise thoughts.

-C+

Simaril · « **Reply #24 on:** April 13, 2006, 11:21:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
............snip all the pertinent information from Widewing's typically excellent post.......

Also a big WTG to Simaril, who keeps getting better and better. ............
My regards,

Widewing

Well, I appreciate the sentiment....but the only direction I could go is up.....

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #25 on:** April 14, 2006, 10:35:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Lazerr
Dude AKAK, lots of people before patch used to fly 38 like a spit. Thats in a furball, where your flaps are out 70% of the time.

Its a big deal, and I don't see how I should have to work around a bug.

I fly the P-38 the same way but since it's the only plane I like to fly, I have to make do with what I got. So I either have to make do working around the bug or not fly at all.

ack-ack

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 16, 2006, 10:16:36 AM »

I only fly the G.

Widewing · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2006, 10:57:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Charge
"Inasmuch as the P-38s were famous for their gentle stall and benign behavior at the limits, the P-38s are now prone to vicious stall behavior when pushed hard. Thankfully, less so with the P-38G. "

Do you have any internet sources of stall behaviour?

From what I have read the P38 has a gentle stall if stalled wings level which is supported by the flow energizing effect of CR propellors. Never hear or read of its gentle stall if pushed hard. Although never hear or read of any magnificent "departures", either...

Why do you compare it to F4U? It was not its historical adversary.

-C+

I wasn't referring to the real P-38s, just those in the game. However, stall behavior of the real P-38s was excellent.

In the game, several issues have arisen since the update. We all know about the flap drag bug, but that's not the whole story.

Infensus and I were dueling with the F4U-1D and P-38J (I had the P-38), while under load (about 3 G), I toggled two notches of flaps rapidly. Previously, this had the effect of tightening the turn with hardly a trace of wobble. Not anymore... The P-38J instantly stalled, snap-rolled and spun. We were about 300 feet AGL, and it's not possible to recover when that low. So, I tried it again. Same result. Later, Infensus flew the P-38J and I had the F4U-1D. He had similar problems. So, there's more to the issue than the huge drag rise, there's the effect the drag rise has on inducing accelerated stalls, even with only partial flap deployment. A heavy-handed pilot can get into similar trouble in the P-38G too.

Whenever there's a change to a flight model, be it a single plane or all (as in this case), I go to the TA and test fly as many as possible, wringing them out fully. I find the limits, and push beyond the limits to discover how and when the planes depart and what is required to recover. I don't like surprises while in the midst of a brawl in the MA.

Our 109s, 190s, Ki-84, Ki-61 and the F6F all show marked improvement in stability at low speeds. P-47s and F4Us both improved when using flaps. P-51s, and P-40s lost a bit of agility due to increased drag when using flaps. Only the P-38s show a major negative shift in handling. I'm curious to see what the coming fix does.

My regards,

Widewing

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 16, 2006, 11:13:18 AM »

Well i hope they fix it than.

68slayr · « **Reply #29 on:** April 16, 2006, 04:12:37 PM »

should you turn fight with your flaps down?