Author Topic: P 38 is ruined (Read 5238 times)

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #45 on:** April 18, 2006, 02:48:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SAS_KID
I read somewhere that the J had a horrible snap roll or stall buffet not sure which one but the L was suppose to have fixed that i guess it may help.

you heard wrong.

ack-ack

Squire · « **Reply #46 on:** April 18, 2006, 08:17:23 PM »

The final flap position is definately "bugged", but its only for landing, you would never use it for combat.

I took up a P-38J for a sortie last night and it seemed ok to me. Was involved in a sea level fight with multiple cons, I didn't plummet into the ground while trying to immelmann or turn.

The stall characteristics seem gentle to me, there is no torque to deal with, and it recovers nicely from a stall. I rather think the P-38 has one of the more pleasant FMs at low speed.

As far as the P-38 departing controlled flight, it could do that, as could every a/c. Some of you guys talk about it as if it wasn't able to be stalled because it had CR props.

All a/c were effected by the last patch, and perhaps thats all there is to it, outside of the final flap bug?

leitwolf · « **Reply #47 on:** April 19, 2006, 02:25:25 AM »

The point is - the P-38 lost competitiveness. It may be more accurate now - i dont pretend to know enough about airplanes to say its right or wrong.
Call this thread a whine if you want

All aircraft were affected, yet only the P-38s are worse than before. It doesnt matter that you can easily recover from a stall or that it still has a good low speed handling. The point is - when riding the stall and you lose it for one moment the plane is going to jerk around, easily recoverable sure enough, but it takes precious time and subsequently hard-won angles in a dogfight. It's hard to describe but before the patch you could 'push through' the stall for a little moment and get that tiny little bit of lead to get your shot in - or yourself out of the bullet stream.
The P-38 never had a huge turning advantage to begin with, so even a little 'issue' turns out to be a serious dent in its dogfighting capability.

Charge · « **Reply #48 on:** April 19, 2006, 03:22:20 AM »

"The P-38 never had a huge turning advantage to begin with, so even a little 'issue' turns out to be a serious dent in its dogfighting capability."

Well, that could be said of a few other planes, too...

-C+

leitwolf · « **Reply #49 on:** April 19, 2006, 04:39:38 AM »

which 'few other planes' do you refer to? Which plane besides the 38 got neutered in the last patch? Its an honest question, i havent flown all planes after the patch.

Oh, if you allude to the 109 slats/turn instability .. they were seriously and undeniably porked as a fighter but this is a thread about the 38s, please dont try to make a cheap shot axis/ally "my plane was bad so yours can be too" comeback.

Charge · « **Reply #50 on:** April 19, 2006, 07:40:38 AM »

"please dont try to make a cheap shot axis/ally "my plane was bad so yours can be too" comeback."

Sry but I just did.

-C+

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #51 on:** April 19, 2006, 09:49:18 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by leitwolf
The point is - the P-38 lost competitiveness.

Stop crying that the sky is falling...sheesh.

The P-38 has not lost its competitiveness, you just have to take care when engaging full flaps and make sure not to ride it like previously. You can still kill stuff in it quite easily.

ack-ack

Krusty · « **Reply #52 on:** April 19, 2006, 10:49:05 AM »

Hell I like the 38 after the patch! I suck and even *I* got kills in it!!!!

I find it turns a LOT better without flaps. This might be my impression, and I'm by no means a 38 expert, but there's 2 types of "feel" for the 38. Without and with flaps. It turns better now with flaps up, than it did before with flaps up. I've had no trouble following and latching onto targets whereas before I had to work a bit more. If I have to get flaps out I know I'm in trouble anyways (flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em), so I use 2-3 notches max for P38s (unless I'm coming out of a stalled loop), so I can't vouch for the "flaps out" turns.

The "flaps up" turn seems crisper to me. Just one opinion out of many.

leitwolf · « **Reply #53 on:** April 19, 2006, 10:49:33 AM »

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The P-38 has not lost its competitiveness, you just have to take care when engaging full flaps and make sure not to ride it like previously. You can still kill stuff in it quite easily

Sure. You can still kill stuff in the P38. You can also get kills in a Spitfire I. Its not even difficult.
But unlike some pilots, not everyone is picking victims from the stratosphere

some actually fight low and slow in it.
The possibility to do so in the Lightning is not as good as before. Nothing more, nothing less.

leitwolf · « **Reply #54 on:** April 19, 2006, 10:58:44 AM »

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If I have to get flaps out I know I'm in trouble anyways (flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em), so I use 2-3 notches max for P38s (unless I'm coming out of a stalled loop), so I can't vouch for the "flaps out" turns.

Flying fast works in (almost) every plane. The P-38 has exceptional snapshot/over the nose shooting capability, no doubt.
I'm not talking about "kills" or "success", i'm talking about dogfighting prowess.

Quote

flaps are a no-no in a fight! I mean, yes they're good but it means you screwed up if you need 'em

is totally wrong with respect to the 'old' P-38. It used to be a very good dogfighting machine exactly in your no-no scenario.

Krusty · « **Reply #55 on:** April 19, 2006, 11:21:13 AM »

That doesn't mean it was accurate or correct before.

I'm not talking 450mph bnz from the stratosphere picks here, I'm talking dogfights, but I mean dogfights where you're paying attention to your speed and flying smart (trying to stay above 160mph) and so forth.

That in no way means I'm timid, and am afraid to use flaps.

Fact is flaps still work. To me they work almost like the flaps of old, but with more drag (more realistic, the US flaps pre 2.07 were total BS and almost everybody knew it). It's only the last notch that has major problems.

As for a little instability in the 38: I didn't notice any. I was pulling through stalls, through loops, I was pulling pretty tightly. I never once snap-stalled, or spun out, hell I haven't even gotten into the spin-O-death lately. I'm by no means a gentle soul on the stick, either.

Perhaps your stick is far too sensitive. In ANY plane if you pull up hard enough you can instantly spin/stall yourself out. This is true of most planes with great elevator authority, and the 38 fits into that category.

Perhaps my experience in the 190s has taught me to use the elevator gently, because I've not had any of the problems the folks here have been mentioning.

Your mileage may vary.

leitwolf · « **Reply #56 on:** April 19, 2006, 11:45:07 AM »

I have no idea about the accuracy of the US flaps now and then. I even agree with you they may have been too good, and i certainly dont know how the P-51 can be such a damn good dogfighter across the whole speed regime (using flaps, that is). This is just a gut feeling, I dont pretend to know anything about aerodynamics to make an informed statement whether this is correct or not. I'm not even advocating "fix my plane or else"

I'm just reaffirming the topic of this thread and the consequences of that: it screws the P38 as a dogfighter. This may actually be more "historical" than before, but: It does have an instability now which resembles, while not as severe, the issues of the 109.
Oh, and its certainly not my joystick or my lack of time in the 190

Iceman24 · « **Reply #57 on:** April 19, 2006, 12:41:03 PM »

I have a new found respect for the F4U series after messing around in the TA with Widewing last night, those dang F4U's can freakin hover!!!

Been flying the PJ around allot lately and all you have to do is take care when using the last few notches of flaps, especially the last 1, I'll just use it for a split second or so, just to sidestep or slow it down allot in a rolling scissors maneuver. I used to think it was porked even more but I now see it just takes a little bit more thought lol. If anything that last notch kinda helps you slow it down to make someone overshoot, works like a fraking dive brake in a P47-40. Just take care when using the flaps and remember to retract them manually, when they auto retract is generally when I see problems. Just takes a while to get used to it, then its no problemo.

Krusty · « **Reply #58 on:** April 19, 2006, 12:53:01 PM »

I've noticed almost no difference in the F4u-1 model. I haven't flown the D-hog much, but the C-hog is the same.

Iceman24 · « **Reply #59 on:** April 19, 2006, 01:06:12 PM »

krusty I wasn't saying the F4U series changed or anything like that, I just never really knew that they could hover like they do. I'm gonna have to start flying them more, I never knew they could maneuver like they do.